This is discussion archived from a time before the current discussion method was installed.
Ununnilium: No, it's not Truth in Television, okay? Jeez. It's a bit insulting to say, "Hey, does every single person in your country feel the same way about relationships and sexuality?"
Tanto: I'm really getting fed up with Truth in Television. You could put it in every entry on this wiki (except for maybe some of the Speculative Fiction stuff). A category that broad is virtually meaningless. We need to narrow the definition -- i.e., "True in spite of what you'd think" -- or dump it, in my opinion.
Lale: Believe it or not, I asked because I'm a young woman and legitimately have no idea if any guys in the real world actually feel this way.
Kizor: There are no girls on the -- oh, never mind. I'm going to go with the cliché here. Probably a few, but you wouldn't want them anyway.
Ununnilium: Yeah; basically, when a generalization trope like this comes up, you can assume that there are a lot of people who don't subscribe to it (though there are always some who do).
Morgan Wick: Actually, I originally brought it up in the origin of this trope on All Guys Want Cheerleaders Discussion, but this trope wasn't quite what I was going for. There seems to be an assumption among some media commentators and the people who bring us TV shows that the mere presence of a capable woman is somehow threatening to the male sense of superiority. Think a parallel to Macho Disaster Expedition. Also, I think you're being a bit too literal with the title. If it's a generalization trope, it can probably go in Truth in Television if the generalization is generally true.
Lale: I don't think all real guys want cheerleaders; the trope title, to me, referred to how all male tv characters want cheerleaders. I never considered for a second that this trope was tapping into a common belief that no real guys like athletic girls; it's just a recurring plot in many shows.
Ununnilium: Yeah, what she said.
Morgan Wick: Really? Because I get the sense that, at least, the common belief (if not the reality) exists. I've heard it as a reasoning why there aren't more truly strong female characters (especially in comic books) and to suggest a bias against real-life big women.
I can't be the only one who's noticed this?
Kilyle: Probably more a facet of Most Writers Are Male and how male writers (a) are more comfortable writing up their fantasies (I'm a powerful guy) than fantasies they've never held (I'm a powerful woman), (b) enjoy the idea of rescuing women more than the idea of being equals with them, (c) may never have met a real woman... I jest, there. I do know that I would not want to be either character in a story (or reality) where the strong female rescues the weak male. I don't mind rescue scenarios under different qualities (she's smarter, she's more empathic, she's better able to talk the guards into letting them go...), but when the male partner either is physically weaker or lacks the backbone or determination to win, it's a real turn-off. I don't know why girls are generally written as weak, but you can't compensate by making the girl strong and the guy get rescued. Generally.
Buffy's a special case where the only possible pair for her is one not quite at her level power-wise (since she is The Chosen One) but very close. No mortal could have been right for her; Riley never had a chance. Angel may have been romantic, but he was wrong for her in part because he was the traditional romance man, the leader, where she by her position needed a near-equal and a follower. Angel didn't accept Buffy's free will, which is a huge problem in any relationship, but moreso for her. Spike, near the end, was completely right for her, physically and emotionally, for more reasons than I'll go into here. But this sort of case is rare for good reason, and the series made a big deal about trying to make the women be the leaders in power. (Too bad they had their share of Broken Aesop moments.)
Bear in mind also a principle I've gotten from reading about romance tropes: The (female) reader steps into the shoes of the hero. Not that she fails to identify with the heroine, but this idea that a female reader sees herself only through the female characters is bunk. And just because a series has an overabundance of male characters and a dearth of female characters doesn't mean that most female readers are going "Aw, man, there's no one here for me!". (BTW, I loved playing Laertes in Hamlet.)
While I'm at it, Kizor... was that going to be "There are no girls on TV Tropes"? 'Cuz I can point out at least one.
Lale: "you can't compensate by making the girl strong and the guy get rescued. Generally." Or can you?
Kilyle: Thanks for pointing that trope out to me. Hadn't read it yet. And I skimmed the examples more than reading them right now, but I get the drift. Still, parts of this support my point.
You'll note that the oldest trope there is that of the huntress who will only take as partner the man who can best her. She's not looking for a weakling. Reminds me of Taming of the Shrew, same thing, albeit she wasn't initially asking for the guy to come along and dominate her. If the high-powered huntress will ever have a mate, he must be able to best her, or at least (as I pointed out with the unusual case of the female Chosen One) come close. I don't know about anyone else, but for me, the female-dominated relationship is a total turn-off (and I have at least one relative, maybe two, that I could name as being in this sort of relationship, and I don't consider them healthy couples).
Redlance and Nightfall is a rare subversion where the male is naturally calmer, gentler, perhaps even I could say "delicate" or "fragile," and needs a strong female to help and support him. But you'll notice that, like most of the healthy couples in Elf Quest, Nightfall doesn't even think of ruling over him. They're equals and they appreciate each other's strengths; there is no domination. And even here, they're not the leading couple.
I have no evidence to back me, but I would wager that the "geek with a superhero girlfriend" is about as realistic as the Ugly Guy, Hot Wife (and may already have its own trope that I'm just not putting my finger on). But anyway, the guy who always has to get rescued is even less appealing as a partner than the Distressed Damsel of olde. I could see possibly a fifty-fifty split... but while there's a reason for the hero to rescue the love interest within the plot of a romance (novel or film), try to stick it into a series with any frequency and it'll get old fast.
I think I basically stand by my initial premise, with added understanding that there are some legitimate examples of "strong female, less strong male" to pull from. It's still the general case that a man who's physically weaker or lacking in willpower or backbone can't hold up his end of the main couple, at least if the gulf between them is of any depth.
Ununnilium: Well, see, this seems to mostly be your own opinion on what makes a good mate, and you're saying that it's therefore a rule that all stories should follow. Personally, I would have absolutely no qualms with a romantic relationship with a physically-stronger woman. (Of course, I wouldn't want a relationship with "domination" on either side, ever... but I know some people who would.)
Lale: In any case, Faux Action Girl seems more designed around this viewpoint than this trope.
Kilyle: Well, yes, my opinion stems from my opinion on mates in the real world. However, I am capable of appreciating things in fiction that I wouldn't appreciate in real life (e.g., I love long hair in anime, but would never marry a man with long hair). And while I know more about romances from reading about them than from actually reading in the Romance genre, my thesis may come from there, where a wimpy male character means death to the novel. Or at least it does in the subgenres I've been reading about. It is likely, at least, that my general thesis is skewed in the direction of my general tastes in literature and viewing material: high fantasy, mysteries, sci-fi shows, dramas, and a certain subset of anime. Perhaps it doesn't hold up in other genres.
Maybe the idea that it's right for the man to be physically stronger than his mate is going to change, but I don't think that's likely, given that it's been a trope since before the Greek myths that even the strongest women were waiting for a man who could physically best them.
Say, is there a forum connected to TV Tropes? A place where we could discuss topics in greater depth? This is a pretty big discussion for just a talk page.
Ununnilium: Eh. Just because something's old doesn't mean it's right. And "willing to have a mate who is physically stronger" is in no way equal to "wimpy". And nope, no forum.
Lale: Sorry, but the Danny Phantom example had nothing to do with the trope. The description is more relevant to the Dating Catwoman in that relationship.
Robin Lionheart: Buffy's boyfriend Riley has a related malady. Riley wants Buffy all the more for being superheroic, but he seeks to enhance his performance to not feel inadequate next to the Slayer.
Lale: Buffy... Surprise, surprise-- that's sarcasm, there.
Seth: I would call that a subversion. Buffy had a few straight examples as well though, guys picking on her saying who would want a strong chick. No direct rejection though... Oh and spike referenced it in the episode with the Vampire Ring.
You think thats bad i'm debating whether or not to list Faith on Jumped at the Call.
Lale: Moved Firefly to Hot Amazon.
Lale: "Subverted for Asuka from Neon Genesis Evangalion: people would reject her because she's strong and powerful if she wasn't already rejected because she's a batshit-crazy psychobitch." ??? Sounds more like her Tsundere side. Her battle prowess is never noted as being unattractive. Neither is Misato's or Rei's.
Dr Dedman: I was going to edit it off, but it looks like someone beat me to it. Not only was it snippy, it was wrong. Asuka had most of of male population of the school chasing her when she shows up. An adult student (a freind of Hikari's big sister) pulled strings to meet her.. etc. The only two turned off by her are Toji and Kensuke (and in the manga Kensuke has a crush on her). "Just once, I wish a girl like her would order ME around!" Asuka just has no interest in a guy who isn't working to save the world like she is. Thus she flirts at Shinji, and throws herself at Kaji. The rest of them do nothing for her.
Rutee: Original Quote, slashes for emphasis: The movie My Super Ex-Girlfriend passes through this trope -- the guy does, indeed, dump the superpowered girlfriend. However, it's not because she's a superhero. It's because she's super-needy and super-jealous. /Her somewhat-predictable reaction proves just why no guy should want an Amazon./
Changing that to something along the lines of, "Which is precisely why many men don't want an Amazon". I might need a dose of MS T3k Mantra, but it almost seems serious, and is far too sexist-seeming, at the least. This lets it retain the (Possible) thoughts of the general target without making it seem as the 'way things should be' or a universally held belief or something. Any problems? (A note, I almost wanted to add a second, snarkier bullet below it, saying 'Of course, it's fine for the male to be capable of overpowerring the woman, because they never go ax-crazy or anything like that over them leaving. Solely the province of the weaker sex'. But this seems much nicer.
Lale: The original point was, "No Guy Wants an Amazon because she makes him look bad, ironically not because she could hurt him and badly." I don;t think it makes any sense now, so I'm changing it back for clarity's sake until someone can come up with something clear, and apparently less sexist(?). Thanks for choosing not to contribute to all the whining around this site about the Double Standard, though.
Shiralee Shouldn't change, it's commenting on a ridiculous modern cultural trend, not advocating it FFS. Any thin-skinned emos PC enough to be bothered by it should go back to burning Stuff and FHM magazines for pushing it in the first place. It's not about attraction, but status. The Amazon is incompatible with the expectations of the typical Trophy Wife (either very thin and wears clingy dresses well, or mildly plump from massive fertile breeding.) It's like trying to pass off a Kensworth truck with a sleeper cab as an SUV. Unforunately nothing can be done about televised occurences without Bugs sawing off California and putting an Airbus terminal in New York. Forcibly. At about 150 feet off the ground. But for everywhere else, it's easy and safe enough to ignore. Oh, also Kizor was mentioning a popular meme, not a literal "no girls here" FEI. (modified for bad midnight engrish)
Ununnilium: Frankly, I'd like to pull the entire example; it has only the slightest relation to the actual trope here.
Lale: Moved a "subversion" to Hot Amazon.
- Also, this trope is averted by Suki and Sokka's relationship.
- Arguably Aang and Katara's relationship as well, given how powerful she'd become by the end of the series. Then again, Aang's the Avatar...
Lale: Then that would be Hot Amazon.
