Archived Discussion

This is discussion archived from a time before the current discussion method was installed.

Working Title: proposal: split Character Alignment: From YKTTW

Uknown Troper: Moved the Prime/Captain America quotes to Chaotic Good, where they seemed more appropriate.

Bob: Moved the Prime quote back to Lawful Good. Moved the Captain America one to Neutral Good because of the whole "Doing the right thing is all that matters" vibe. I put it in Lawful Good in the first place because it seemed to represent his personal code of honor (Lawful), but it's probably fits Neutral Good better.

Later: Moved the quote to The Cape. I'll find some other quote for the article.

Black Humor: Moved the Prime quote back to Chaotic Good, because it just makes more sense there.

Scrounge: Chaotic Good deleted it. Adding it back here.

Kerrah: Can anyone tell me why they think the Optimus Prime quote makes sense in Chaotic Good in the first place? It's not a chaotic good ideal, it's just a generic good ideal. It fits here because LG is "goody-two-shoes" and it fits in NG because it's as close to generic good as possible, but not chaotic good.

Barratsoss: Why is the header formulated as if Lawful Good would only occur in Dungeons and Dragons, instead of being a general pattern ? And why does the intro claim that "Paladins are most often required to be lawful good" ? That only applies to Dungeons and Dragons.
Wraith_Magus: I'm moving Adell of Disgaea into Chaotic Good. He was removed from CG before because it seems a poster believed that "following his way" made Adell "Lawful". The problem with that logic is that Lawful characters have to be willing to follow someone else's rules to be lawful. (More generally, you have to generally agree with and try to embody the notion of what the culture expects of a citizen, believe that order and social structure enhance the society, and make moves to ensure the overall stability of the society.) Not following even one's own guidelines for behavior, or not having any kind of guiding rules for behavior make one Chaotic Stupid, not Chaotic Good. Almost by definition, to be "Good" at all, you have to be following some kind of ethical guidelines (even if you only follow them because of emotional values judgements, and not because they are hard and fast binding rules). Adell is, as was put in the LG description, the embodiement of a "Hot-Blooded" hero. He follows what he believes is right, and doesn't care what other people's rules might be. If that makes you think 'lawful', you're a little confused about Order Versus Chaos.
Wraith_Magus: I'm removing the Negi Springfield (Anime - Mahou Sensei Negima) from the list because after thinking about it, he is clearly a Neutral Good character. This was already there...
  • Negi Springfield from Mahou Sensei Negima, a cute ten-year-old Chick Magnet and descendant of an exceptionally powerful wizard who's devoted to protecting all of his 31 students (who all happen to be cute in their own special way).
    • It's more accurate to say that he starts Lawful Good. Over the course of the manga, however, he begins learning how hard it is to actually be it. But even though he's been forced to perform Chaotic acts in the name of Good, and even (by some standards) Evil acts in the name of Law (and Good), he always tries the Lawful Good way first.
      • Which makes Lawful Good the perfect alignment for Negi since the idea of Alignment is not a measure of what people will always do, but, in any given situations, what course of action they try first.
What does Negi actually do? In his childhood, he breaks into the magical libraries in the middle of the night to learn magic he thinks he needs to save his father. From the very first volume, given a choice between upholding his Prime Directive of keeping magic a secret and even the slightest inconvenience to his students, he invariably chooses his students. Nodoka going to trip down the stairs? Use magic outdoors in broad daylight. Asuna see you save Nodoka? Bah, spill the secret to her even if you are specifically ordered not to. Want to get back on Asuna's good side? Make her an illegal love potion so she can spellbind your own close friend. Girls playing dodgeball going to beat you? Cheat using magic! That's just the first volume. He then studies under an outlaw mage to learn "dark magic", drags over half his class into his personal army, and starts soft romances with them for pactios. Then there's the Mahorofest, where he directly confronts his superiors regarding Chao, and when he finds out she really is guilty of everything they say she is guilty of, and even more, is using completely banned time magic, instead of giving his superiors a really key piece of information in stopping Chao's Xanatos Gambit, he once again gleefully makes confetti out of his standing orders and his Prime Directive to use the illegal magic not because the safety of his students or some other greater good was at stake, but just because he wanted to go play with all his classmates at the same time, go on several dates, and go fight in the Budokai for no real reason other than that Kotaro really wanted to pick a fight. Time after time after time, he shows he doesn't care in the least about the rules or following direct orders the instant it might in any way impact his goals of ensuring the growth and saftey of his students, or finding his father. What part of that sounds lawful to you?

Bob: Edited the Order Of The Stick example. There is such a thing as Too Much Information.

  • Roy Greenhilt of Order Of The Stick is explicitly stated to be Lawful Good, because his is a D&D-run continuity (And, along with Sam Vimes, one of about three recorded instances of a Lawful Good being played right, and not Lawful Stupid). After his death, a being of pure Law and Good reviews his file, making particular note of his failings-his tendency to use Chaotic means to achieve Lawful ends, his occasional disrespect for local ordinances in favor of a more familiar set of rules, and most especially his association with Belkar (although that was written off as an attempt to redeem an evildoer, because he did put a very effective leash on Belkar's evil, and quite often directed it towards Good ends). But in the end, she granted him entry into the afterlife anyway, because he kept trying; he's human, after all, and it's unreasonable to expect him to live up to the standards of Pure Law and Good. When his father, who expected Roy to be stuck in limbo until Julia or one of her descendants managed to defeat Xykon, found out, he was incensed; the spirit chastised him because he stopped caring about the oath and moved on to other pursuits, which is why he's still stuck here. Miko Miyazaki, meanwhile, is also Lawful Good, but so Lawful Stupid about it that she's violently psychotic and anyone who disagrees with her delusional view of the world is automatically pigeonholed as being part of some great Evil conspiracy only she can stop; this view continues unabated until finally she pushes herself into unambiguously Evil territory, which causes her to fall and become a Fighter-Without-Bonuses (Belkar tried to goad her into this earlier, without considering that it would take some 5000 gold worth of diamonds for Durkon to resurrect him; probably for the best that Roy saved him then).

Filby: Took out the Optimus Prime quote, as the sentiment is more Chaotic Good. —- Taelor: Removed discussion in the main page. Personally, I'm of the opinion that that Vimes is Chaotic Good at heart, but is also the head of a Lawful organization, and is Neutral Good in practice.
  • Commander Vimes has taken Chaotic Good and reforged it until it fits in the Lawful Good hole. Vimes is Lawful Good with everything that makes Chaotic Good interesting. I once saw a motivational poster which bore a picture of Vimes and the legend, "THIS IS HOW YOU PLAY LAWFUL GOOD YOU BASTARDS." In short, I want to grow up to be Vimes.
    • This Troper always viewed Vimes as Chaotic Lawful Good. Only the Discworld would let you get away with such a contradictory description.
    • Neutral Good, do you speak it?
    • Nah. Vimes doesn't ignore laws he thinks are unjust, he just subverts them while enforcing them, something along the lines of "malicious obedience" or a "white mutiny." Lord Vetinari said it best: Vimes manages an anti-authority streak despite being an authority figure himself, which is practically Zen.
    • Lord Shojo from ''Order Of The Stick does the same thing, and is canonically Chaotic Good.
    • As for Vimes, I can say that I think he fits rather well into Lawful Good, although he possesses a strong Chaotic Good attitude, contrary to his alignment. I find it hard putting him under Neutral Good because, well, at any given time, you can expect him to be upholding the law in some kind of way. Carrot Ironfoundson, however, is pretty damn easily put in Lawful Good territory.

Ansem Paul: Is Seraph Lammington really LG? I mean [[Spoiler: His plan involved numerous trickery and deciet, and I get the impression King K is CG]]. Flonne's LG right into Stupid Good