This is discussion archived from a time before the current discussion method was installed.
Harpie Siren: I will admit that this does seem to be an actual character type. But something about the name, and the entry, doesn't sit well with me... it feels... condensending... yes, these characters can be simpleminded... and thay can be something of The Ditz, but, calling them straight out stupid? Ed of Ed Edd N Eddy is stupid, Cosmo of The Fairly Odd Parents is stupid. I wouldn't call half these characters "Stupid", Simpleminded and Ditzy, maybe, but not stupid...
Tanto: On a similar note, I question the inclusion of Ichigo. Granted, I've only seen the show as far as the dub has gotten, but I've never seen him do anything really stupid like some of these others. He's overconfident, sure, but that's not quite the same thing.
Tzintzuntzan I've only seen Scryed, so I don't have much knowledge of this type...but if Kazuma is typical of the breed, this entry isn't condescending enough. Kazuma is a walking id — no brains, no motives, just animal instincts and superpowers. He's the Hulk with pale skin and slightly better language skills. (Other people's mileage may vary, but for me, he was The Kimberly — I was rooting for the jack-booted fascists to beat him. And no, I didn't write this entry.)
I think there could be something to be said here about the really warped moral this character may (unintentionally) provide; he seems to be the male counterpart to the moronic Shoujo heroine with lots of heart.
Harpie Siren: Wow, I can safely say he's not the typical breed. I don't like most of the shows mentioned, save one or two, but I wouldn't call the ones I'm familiar with. "a walking id"...
osh: Gotta agree with Tzin here. Condescending isn't the same as insulting exactly, and a lot of these characters are described this way within their own show by other people.
Guy Smiley: For that matter, do we even have a trope for said moronic Shoujo heroine?
Harpie Siren: No I don't believe we do, Usagi would be one of them, right?
Harpie Siren: Oh, I forgot about that one...
Ununnilium: I'm taking several of these out, though. You have Sora in here! You have Ichigo in here, for pete's sake! IMHO, none of the following fit, and these are just the ones I've seen:
- Goku from Dragonball.
- Ichigo from Bleach.
- Naruto from Naruto.
- Daisuke from Digimon 02.
- Sora from Kingdom Hearts.
...and I'm really thinking Siegfriend doesn't count. (For one thing, I'm pretty sure he's not idealistic, nor does he have a Nakama, and he's definitely not incorruptible.) But I've never actually seen the opera, so I'll leave it to someone else.
Also, taking out "The Idiot Hero will ALWAYS evolve into the The Messiah before the series ends", because, well, no. No he doesn't.
Also also: This seems, to me, to be an Always Male trope. What'cha think?
Susan Davis: Siegfried is pretty much the ur-example; do yourself a favor and see the operas at some point.
Susan Davis: Does Groo the Wanderer count as an Idiot Hero, or as The Fool? Or is he both?
Harpie Siren: I went through the entries of the series we removed references to here(Which basicly took out all the characters who I wouldn't call "stupid") and took out the refernces to this trope in them...
Tzintzuntzan: The Dojikko isn't quite what I was thinking of, although it overlaps. I was thinking of an utterly moronic heroine who wins because her twue wove and pure heart are so strong, even though her stupidity is constantly getting characters endangered or killed, and she rarely comes up with an idea on her on. Usagi of course, and Miaka too — basically, the Margaret Simon stripped of most of her redeeming qualities. (But a lot of my Shōjo knowledge is from Popcultural Osmosis, so this may be a rarer thing than I thought.)
((Zeta)): Ununnilium, are you kidding? Goku from Dragonball is the primary example of this type of character, along with Luffy, Daisuke, and Naruto. Ichigo doesn't quite fit, except in the "humorous" asides in the series, where he miraculously loses several IQ points for jokes to work (such as annoying a more pressing matter to squable with a friend). Sora has a lot more heart than the others, but he's still presented as being a stupid, spiky-haired warrior with a gang of folks around him.
Harpie Siren: Sora's not stupid, he is simple-minded and naive, but dosen't make him stupid. I'm gonna find it incredibly strange that this wiki says Sora's stupid... but elsewhere it calls Donald Duck "smart".
Ununnilium: Groo is definitely The Fool. He almost seems like a parody of this trope, except that he's not at all. If you know what I mean.
The characters I took out... They tend to be more "naive" than the all-encompassing idiocy that the trope defines, IMHO. Sora, especially, isn't any less intelligent than anyone else his age.
- And how this entry lasted so long without someone mentioning Goku from Dragon Ball Z is utterly beyond me.
Harpie Siren: Because we decided he wasn't this type of character....
Chuckg: 'We'? The consensus was hardly unanimous in here on that issue. Putting the entry back in.
For God's sake... 'big eater'? 'doesn't usually plan ahead'? 'good natured unless friends or innocents are harmed?' 'most powerful fighter, with BFS ki attacks?' Spiky hair?!? The entire entry is practically Goku's biography!
nobody: I agree this trope describes Goku to a T, but I have issues with this part of the entry: "Goku had a disturbing tendency to be a selfish Jerk Ass in the manga." Examples, please? Otherwise I'm taking that part out tomorrow.
Steel Beast 6 Beets: Taking out:
If anything, Marche is just a naive Captain Obvious. Mentioning anything else about him is asking for the good ol' Internet Backdraft, so let's not go there.
Gloating Swine: How was Subaru an Idiot?
Yukisensei13: How is Ichigo more mature, and deeper (especially deeper) than Luffy, Naruto or Goku? Smarter yes (although you couldn't tell, if you only see him during fights), but deeper and more mature?? Everytime time he pulls his sword out, any sign of maturity flies out the window.
