Archived Discussion

This is discussion archived from a time before the current discussion method was installed.

Sorry to put this on top, but it regards the nature of the article: Canon is limited to that which has actually been described in the source material. So are we saying that Word of God isn't canon? This Troper is fine with that, and agrees, but is just making sure that this is the attitude this troper takes.
Literature section? Whats up with that? There's plenty of Fanon going on in the Jane Austen fandom - even setting aside that which is caused by adaptations! The biggest example being Colonel Fitzwilliam's first name being Richard!

These are both wrong:
  1. Saffron, the Phoenix King, is not a god, a demigod, or any other such thing, and never claimed to be one. Note that this doesn't stop Fan Fic writers from claiming that Ranma "has killed a God," and then have the cast reacting with appropriate awe.
  2. One of the most egregious examples of Fanon taking off (a la Akane turning in to a psycho-hose beast) is Ranma's refusal to fight women. He's never once said that, and in fact at least 40% of his fights are with women, without him ever once complaining.

Saffron by polytheistic religions, Shinto, Haitian voodoo, old norse, etc... would constitute a god. There are also mentions of ascension and his pagoda has symbols of divinity on it. Beyond that both in China and Japan, phoenixes are guardians of the heavens.

While Ranma will fight girls, he doesn't like to and has complained during the pink and link storyline he says: they're girls and I hate fighting against girls.

Rebuttal: Please elaborate on how a polytheistic religion would consider Saffron a god, especially since: the manga never calls him that, directly or indirectly; the characters do have a pretty good idea of what a god looks like (such as the God of the Seas,) have actually interacted with manga-only divine creatures, and never see Saffron that way; his ascension means "ascend to the throne" because, you know, he was a little kid that had to mature to become Mt. Phoenix' power plant. His pagoda being adorned with symbols of divinity is meaningless —Japanese and Chinese emperors do the same thing. Having nigh-invulnerability and shooting off mountain-vaporizing heat beams does not a god make, but if you could explain the first part of your argument in much deeper detail then we could all benefit from it.

Zeful: So just because something can be described as one thing, doesn't mean it should. Saffron could be classified as a God, but would be better termed an "Immortal".

While Saffron could be classified as a god, that doesn't mean all that much, not all Shinto gods are powerful, some are even weaker than humans (more than 8 million kami, a lot like many of the animal gods are weaker than humans). Though the reason that Japanese emperors are adorned with symbols of divinity is, according to Shinto religion, because the Japanese emperors are divinity, thought to be direct descendants of the sun goddess, Amaterasu, and were worshiped as such until 1945 when the USA pretty much forced them to stop worshiping the emperor as divinity. Part of the reason he would be classified as a god is because many polytheistic religions classify all supernatural creatures as gods, they likely would classify Saffron as one (Shinto for example classifies ghosts, oni, tengu, animal spirits, etc... as kami).
  • The point is, nowhere in the manga, Japanese or English, is he ever referred to as a "god" or as a "kami." If the original manga author didn't call him a kami, then fans calling him that is the very definition of Fanon.

Looney Toons: What's the Expanded Universe?

Ununnilium: ...something I could've sworn there was already a trope entry for. Basically, all the extra stuff that's produced by the same company, but not by the same creators, and isn't usually considered part of the continuity. Stuff like the tie-in novels that so many Speculative Fiction series have.

Gus: Aha! I fixed it up, pointing to The 'Verse.

Ununnilium: Works for me. `.`vvv

Darmok: Dr. McCoy actually said "I'm a doctor not a (insert job here)" more than three times:
  • "I'm a doctor, not a bricklayer."
    - The Devil in the Dark
  • "I'm a doctor, not an engineer."
    - Mirror, Mirror
  • "I'm a doctor, not an escalator."
    - Friday's Child
  • "I'm a doctor, not a mechanic."
    - The Doomsday Machine
  • "I'm a doctor, not a coal miner."
    - The Empath

And he came (relatively) close a few more time too:

  • "What am I, a doctor or a moon-shuttle conductor?"
    - The Corbomite Maneuver
  • "I'm a surgeon, not a psychiatrist."
    - The City on the Edge of Forever
  • "I'm not a scientist or a physicist, Mr. Spock..."
    - Metamorphosis
  • "I'm a physician, I do not peddle flesh."
    - Return to Tomorrow
  • "I'm not a magician, Spock, just an old country doctor."
    - The Deadly Years

Ununnilium: Took out that bit, and changed The 'Verse back to Expanded Universe now that we have it.

Tamsin: Why does it say "full names of characters with Only One Name", when having Only One Name means that the One Name is their full name? Shouldn't it link to No Name Given?

Ununnilium: Indeed, it should.

Binaroid: I disagree — there are several cases of characters with Only One Name being given a Fanon surname (or given name). For instance, it's happened to Kei and Yuri of the Dirty Pair more than once. One could argue that the remake of Battlestar Galactica did this, too (e.g. William Adama). 'Edit: I just read the entries for Only One Name and No Name Given. I've reverted my edit. Sorry about that.

Shay Guy: When did Bob and George first mention the Cataclysm? Before or after mid-2002? Because that's when the fanfic Mega Man X: Whispers In Time was written. So if B&G's first mention was after that, Erico deserves credit for the idea. (Never mind. I just checked, and it was about a year before. So yeah, Dave gets the honor.)

Fast Eddie: pulled ...
That which the fans think counts, and the polar opposite of the Word of God. Often rules fanfic with an iron fist.
... as it sort of buried the lead.

Ununnilium: Pulling "Canon is irrelevant", since the whole point of the article isn't that fans don't care about what's canon; it's just that their idea of what's canon is sometimes incorrect.

Of Transformers and Seekers, it was discovered a few years ago that the term "seeker" wasn't actually fan-coined, but merely a really obscure official term that showed up in one or two catalogs. It was assumed that it was a fan term for a decade before someone dug up the original usage. []

On Harry Potter: "James and his friends are almost universally considered to be known as the Marauders, due to their naming their magic map the Marauder's Map. This is never established in the books or as far as this troper knows, backed up by Rowling, and the name might very well be due to the map being used for marauding." Wrong on both counts, actually. Rowling admitted it on her official site, and the term was later used (by Hermione, if memory serves) to refer to the four in one of the books. —Heroic Jay

  • The final, ultimate attack of the Ansatsuken School, Shun Goku Satsu (or "Raging Demon") does not pull the opponent's (nor the practitioner's) soul into Hell to be assaulted by demons. This interpretation stems from a misunderstanding of Akuma's "win" speeches.
  • I am pretty sure you are wrong, since Shun Goku Satsu translates as "Imprisoning Hell Flash". What else would it do?
  • Actually, it's "Instant Hell Murder."
when you've made up your mind, guys.

Charred Knight: Given the recent news about Gouken, I don't even think it's lethal.
  • Known Unknown: Apparently not. It seems he's come back as a ghost.

  • Heroes has accumulated quite a bit of fanon. Popular theories include:
  • Parkman and Mohinder are a gay couple.

I'm not sure if pairings count as fanon. It's just a Ship, same as any other, and if any Heroes Ship belonged here, it would probably be Petrellicest, as it is probably the most common secondary pairing in Fanfic. I don't think that counts either, though.

I Like Crows: I'm a bit confused by the wording of the last sentence here:
  • Going with the NiGHTS into Dreams... bit, the character of all the other characters (excepting Reala and NiGHTS itself) is completely based in fanon, to the extent that some people complained when the second game was released, saying that the characters "weren't true to canon". This seems to have been remedied somewhat over time, however characters such as Jackle are still prone to this.

It either sounds like people complained about Jackle "not being true to canon" in the new game (which doesn't make sense since he wasn't in it) or like they're stopped with fanon-based characterization, which they haven't.

Rebochan: Ninjacrat, you realize that by demanding that the ending of FFX had only one interpretation that you're proving my point, right? The example should stay on that alone. The clip in question was Tidus landing in the ocean. Exactly the way he got to Spira at the beginning of the game. If that's definitive proof of him not being there, I daresay that Square can never satisfy anyone short of slapping "NO HE'S NOT DEAD DAMMIT" on the ending credits. I'm putting the example back - I'd ask that you not start another edit war here because you don't like it.
Rebochan: The entire Bible section is a spindle of natter and Conversation in the Main Page. I'm going to have a go at simplifying it.

Edit: And done. The main point of the examples were buried in all the natter. They could probably be fleshed out without causing any harm, I just wanted to cut out the rambling and focus the entries.

"Lilith was an Expy from various Babylonian and Sumerian myth and is not in the Bible. She does appear in various pre-Christianity Jewish texts." Actually, Lilith as the first wife of Adam does not appear, but the name is used (as an unspecified scary creature) in Isaiah.

Rebochan: Heh, I'm not much of an expert, I was just going off the info from the old examples.

The Naruto example with the Akatsuki-living-together seems to be based more off of the Rule of Funny rather then actual seriousness. Like Full House, but with ninjas. They tend to have the same quality too...
  • I thought about removing that too. I don't think I've ever seen that in a fic that wasn't a Crack Fic. I think it's just a common sub-trope of fanfic for the series and not true fanon since no one takes it seriously.

Crowley: Cutting these Transformers examples; they're too generic to be examples.

Anonymous: Does anyone else think we need to split this page into media subpages, like we've done for Crowning Moment of Awesome and other huge pages?

I Like Crows: I think so, it's getting huge.