Archived Discussion

This is discussion archived from a time before the current discussion method was installed.

Why are we using the words "hater" and "hating on" at all? It's a sure sign of unintellegence and that the user that put up the entry is weak minded. We need a word to replace that awful, awful "haters" crap. IT NEEDS TO BE DONE AWAY WITH, PERIOD. I AM SICK OF THE WORD.
Lost Librarian: Just redid the entire anime section. It was whiny. I've changed rather a lot of the wording to make it more neutral and less confrontational (and whiny, ye gods), whilst trying to retain some of the original character. I changed some wording to make it easier to follow. And I changed some wording to make it a more entertaining read, though I suspect I could have instructed readers to drive nails into their eyes and achieved the same effect.

In the end it's all pretty boring anyway. I have no idea why i bothered.
Hit-and-Run: Took the step of deleting the whole "Real Life" section. Thought the rest aren't too good, that one consisted entirely of whining. I really could not see one single "example" in there worth saving, especially since many were exaggerated to the point of bearing no relation to real-life as I know it. It is my belief that a good many of these "examples" simply do not exist in the real world, except in the minds of overly-sensitive people.
  • TsundeRay: A troper I know in real life thought there were a few examples worth saving (the programming one for instance) and that you're exagarrating a bit. I seriously hope he gets brutally raped and murdered for thinking like that.

Hit-and-Run: I thought I'd better give a concrete example of what I mean by "generalisations and hyperbole", lest I be charged with doing the same thing.

So– Take a genre of anything. Music, books, TV, movies, games, animation, art, anything. If you pick any side in any of those *** to align yourself with, then there is most definitely a 100% chance you also have to hate something and people who are a fan of that ***. There is no exception outside of Team Switzerland, and those people are depressingly rare.

Now, I'll admit I tend to be literal-minded– but "most definitely a 100% chance", and "no exception"? I mean, come on!

And that's not an isolated example. Very many of these comments strike me as having little to do with the genuine phenomenon of anti-fans, and much more with the posters' resentment that other people don't give their tastes total approval. However, the frequent use of sweeping statements may be the real problem: once you start attributing the actions of a small group of obsessives to everyone in a given ***, the reader instantly assumes you must really be talking about ordinary criticism and disagreement, hence that you have a serious victim complex– whereas maybe you're just exaggerating for dramatic effect.

All right, this is turning into an essay. So, I just want to say, I really respect TV Tropes as a resource and also because it's often very funny. Let's just say the examples on this page are not exactly doing you guys justice.

I apologise if any of this is offensive.

Hit-and-Run: At the risk of being rude, I'd like to note that a great many of the examples here come across as, frankly, pretty whiny– like people are just taking the chance to air their grievances and grind their axes. I hope I'm not being presumptuous when I suggest you guys consider cleaning them up. Please do not take this as an attack. I've learned the hard way that regulars on these kind of sites can be very sensitive about outside interference.

Finally, I see a great deal too much generalising and hyperbole.

TsundeRay: Really, just have this page cut. It's worse than Dethroning Moment of Suck and TT: Berserk Button put together.
Working Title: You\'re not allowed to like that!: From YKTTW

Blork: I've cleaned up the examples a bit, removing a lot of natter that got carried over from YKTTW. Also, do people really criticise stage magic for being "fake"? I like magic but while I can understand why someone might find it boring I can't imagine anyone not realising that it's supposed to be a trick (I'm assuming here that we're talking about magicians who present themselves as illusionists - Derren Brown, Penn & Teller, David Blaine, etc. and not con artists like Uri Geller or Sylvia Brown).

Ununnilium: People really do do that. Yes, it is, in fact, really stupid; it's the same "Yes, I know it's fake, shut up and let me enjoy it!" thing as Professional Wrestling.

Uberschveinen: Some people are genuinely offended by the notion that magic is fake, and like many offended people, are determined to make everybody else think similarly. Most people start off watching magic believing it to be real, then transition to the adult magic fan, where you know it's an illusion, and most of the time you are watching for the trick, but occasionally when someone does something spectacularly impressive you don't bother with the trick and just revert to childlike wonder. The people who hate magic never made that transition since they were too busy being outraged, and for some reason or other, don't seem to understand it. For some reason revelations that wrestling and magic are fake are treated much more seriously than santa or the easter bunny.

Lord TNK: Just leave the part about sports games and crutches alone. That may technically be natter, but it's also exemplary of just how these people can be unreasonable with their *** of a certain thing.


Justifying Edit.

  • By the by, in some ways they are worse than Moral Guardians. They don't even have the claim of protecting people, just their idea that their own subjective opinions are superior.

Arguably, the worst thing about Moral Guardians is their claim to protecting people.

Lord TNK: I didn't state it was a good thing.

movie007: I actually somewhat agree with both of you. On one hand, it's probably even more annoying that the Moral Guardians want to play nanny. On the other hand, though, the Moral Guardians do have a somewhat justifiable reason for their actions - even though they should just butt out and let people decide for themselves. Still, there is definitely a similarity between the two:
Fan: My kids enjoy listening to Led Zeppelin!
Moral Guardian: What kind of parent are you? Letting them listen to this devil garbage! Your children will probably grow up to become morally bankrupt!
Fan ***: What kind of moron are you? Letting them listen to this inferior garbage! Your children will probably grow up to become inbred idiots!

Lord TNK: I put the comment about Michael Bay movies back, because I have personally gotten some hate simply for not thinking his movies suck.

  • Ah, the wonderful world of webcomics. This happens with every webcomic that catches on. Without fail. Your webcomic isn't popular until it gets a dedicated group of people to bash it on a large number of forums. This most likely started because webcomics have a generally lower quality standard and are based more on an equivalent of Three Chords and the Truth style of personal storytelling than on being a refined product. On a similar note, John Soloman may or may not even realize that his weblog, which is often just indignation at the popularity of a series than real criticism (see the Sluggy Freelance entry for a pretty glaring example), is instead doing a lot more for getting people to read these webcomics than it is either driving people away from them or inspiring the authors to improve.

The first part is really a specific expression of a more general law, isn't it... Added such to the main entry. The latter... meh. That's said all the time about people complaining about things. Is it true? Isn't it? I dunno. But it doesn't really belong in there.

  • You seem to have entirely misread his review. He said nothing of its popularity, and his main criticism of the comic is the absurd amount of back story that has to be read to understand the damned thing. Still, another thing to tick off the bingo board.

  • This troper is sick of how every video of a Guitar Hero or Rock Band performance on YouTube which shows any level of skill gets a ton of comments from people saying "get a life". There are actually people out there who have dozens and sometimes hundreds of comments made on these videos that only say "get a life" or something similar. Gee, who's the one who should be getting a life here?
    • Someone's made a hack to turn the Wii guitar hero controller into an actual instrument once connected to a computer. Hopefully everyone will shut the fuck up soon.

This is basically what the entry already said, but more subjective and conversational.

It's one thing to dislike a webcomic. It's another thing completely to dedicate entire sites, boards, and memes to your hate for it, and all-in-all never shutting the fuck up about it. It's also hard to tell when it's done because they actually think it's funny (even the eighteen-millionth time), for the sheer schadenfreude, or both.
  • It doesn't help that a good many of the above are fun to make fun of, in some cases more so than going off and doing something else. But yeah, the ones that aren't having a good time with it should probably just find something that they do like.

This seems like Fan *** on Fan ***.
Sean Tucker: What if you hate the fans but actually like the original work?

  • Really? My whole family does. Mainly for Headlines.

Yes. That's the point.
  • More or less, there's a hatred between the fans of downloading and those who don't, often manifesting in arguments of being a "True fan". Word of God says, the former is the truest fan, but the latter is most prevailing.

movie007: I'm not sure that the portion bolded is necessarily true. Several years ago, the members of Metalica made a big stink of people downloading their music from Napster. Other musical artists tends to have attitudes that range from ambivalent of actually supportive - but, the fact remains, not all artists support the downloading of their own music.

And what about non-musical stuff, like video games? Obviously there are a few developers (like Stardock and Paradox) who don't put some kind of anti-download software in their game, but the vast majority of developers do.
Lord TNK: Removed the example about sci-fi book in the 50's and 60's. This trope is not criticism of the works themselves.

Whatever: Removing the Television Without Pity example. It's not even a hatedom website, dude. There are some beloved shows, some with mixed or average reactions, and yes, the occasional hated one. But even on the boards that are full of hatred towards the show, they don't go 'round taking potshots at people for liking it. Quite simply, it's against the rules, the boards are heavily moderated, and doing that is a good way to get banned.
Ray Ayanami: These examples have no place on this page:
  • Real Super Smash Bros. players play Melee. If you play Brawl, you're a "casualfag"/"casualtard."
  • You're not allowed to play Dance Dance Revolution unless you're a gay Asian guy.
    • If you play Dance Dance Revolution and not the open-source clone StepMania, or at least the StepMania-based In the Groove, you are most likely a pariah at many Bemani online communities. Let's not even start on the hatred between keyboard and pad players... Unless you actually can respectably appreciate the merits of both styles. At least a majority of the communities on each side of the conflict will treat you with at least a little respect then.
  • Speaking of Asians, only they are allowed to be really good at video games, especially scrolling shooters and music games (like the aforementioned Dance Dance Revolution). If you're a Westerner and are just as good, you have no life.
    • And if you're a fan of scrolling shooters but can only play on easy mode? Prepare for lots of Easy-Mode Mockery. Touhou *** easy mode players get a partial excuse, because to much of that community, the real *** is all about Memetic Mutation anyhow.

Trogga: Why don't they?

Myth Sage: Is there a particular reason as to why the "If you like a cartoon or CGI character..." example is repeated 3 times on this page alone? If not, I'll prolly delete it. I'm not against the idea, but Deja Vu is for fools .*
  • * Editor's note—Deja vu is not necessarily for fools. Please don't hurt me.

The front page isn't for debating, but I'll add this here:


  • ... You are' aware that... Oh, whatever. Yeah, it's not like there were bloody, needless wars fought between Protestants and Catholics causing centuries of unbridled enmity and scorn on both sides and alternating exile and attempted genocide the world over. No, don't be ridiculous, apparently nobody hates Christians like Liberals. As if. You know who really hated Christians? The people who had them killed for worshipping the wrong god, that's who''. Not the people who rattle off "irritating comments".


  • Yawn. This page is about fan ***, not fan bloody needless warriors. Also, genocide? Exaggerate much? It seems like you have an axe to grind.

Caswin: Do I really need to explain removing this from the Star Trek entry?
  • Way to play down the fact that fans still do that in the first place, and that even the casual fans have a lot more in common with the Klingon cosplayers than you or me.
...alright, fine, before anyone calls me on it: The entry already acknowledges that such fans exist as a minority, the only thing they have in common with casual fans is being a fan of Star Trek, and I hope that I don't have to explain how much is wrong with claiming that Trek fans are different from "you or me."
Rebochan: This one was worth being discussed.

  • No one is supposed to like Rosie O'Donnell despite her reputation for being the "queen of nice". But since that feud with Donald Trump however...people have started *** Rosie.

There's a lot more going on with the Rosie hate, much of which is her fault, and some of which is blown out of proportion. The main contention is that she had her "queen of nice" name when she had her own talk show, but eventually lost it after she and Tom Selleck came to blows on her own program over gun control. Neither one of them will agree on what happened - Selleck claims Rosie ambushed him when he was supposed to be promoting a movie, O'Donnel claims he knew in advance and tried to play the martyr. Regardless of who was right or wrong or in between, the public impression was that she couldn't be the queen of nice anymore after she attacked an innocent guest. After that incident, the only people who called her "the queen of nice" were her critics. By her time on the View, she made no pretenses of maintaining the moniker, and hadn't since then either. Agree with her or not, she no longer plays up to that image.

In order to keep the page free of natter I'd just like to take this opportunity to explain that the main reason that furries are shunned throughout the internet is not necessarily for their perceived sexual perversion but rather for the fact that they attract drama like a magnet and will not freakin' shut up about how much everyone supposedly hates their subculture. My statement will most likely be proven fact when a group of indignant furries show up to tell me I'm wrong.

Rebochan: Self-fulfilling arguments are great - it's like you never have to admit you're wrong! I couldn't care less about furries, but nine times out of ten, I will have to deal with some idiot that won't shut up about how much he hates furries and wants them all put to sleep. I can be toodling along, reading my blog about video games, when out comes some virulent furry *** screaming about something or other on a Star Fox article. Meanwhile, to find furries, I usually would have to try. The "furry ***" thing is a trend that a bunch of morons learned from 4chan and Something Awful, but completely missed the point (which is that 4chan and Something Awful originally did so as a joke...). Thus ruining jokes about furries forever.

Really? I doubt that. Something Awful (and 4chan as well) are more like "atrocity tourists", discussing (and mocking) furries because they genuinely dislike them. Something Awful had the "Comedy Lolocaust" in which furry users of the forum were mocked and had their accounts messed with and banned etc. 4chan pulled a similar stunt called "April Furs Day" (also they seem to explain their reasons for *** furries very well). Keep in mind that Something Awful forum accounts cost real money.

Feo Takahari: Really, this argument shouldn't exist. Categorically *** "furries," categorically *** "furry ***," categorically *** "*** of furry ***" . . . let's just start over.

Aquillion: The description of this trope is way, way, too aggressive. I'll try and tone it down a little. Judging people by their taste in art or their reading material or whatever is not the monstrous act of inhumanity that that page implies; it might be rude to get all "Your favorite band sucks!" in someone's face, but to talk about their so-called "enjoyment" is pointlessly harsh.

Rebochan: Have you met a fanhater? The ones this page is discussing are people who probably take *** on the fans more seriously than the fans take the work they like.

fleb: That's what the description at the top seems to assume, but most of the examples that actually get listed don't really seem that zealous. Incredibly annoying, yeah, but honestly, this page itself seems horribly defensive to the point of hate.

Hit-and-Run: If you'd care for an outsider's perspective– then yes, absolutely. I'm sorry, but many of these examples strike me as this trope in action.


Anyone get vibes of Completely Missingthepoint out of this "example"?
fleb: Girl-wonder? Seriously? Who added that?
  • There's a substantial subculture of feminists who seem to read a lot of superhero comics entirely because they're the most misogynist things ever and give them a never-ending chance to voice their displeasure.
    • Or so you might think if you never actually read the sites, particularly the "favorites" and "recommended" areas.
    • Click on the second link. Apparently Gail Simone, the writer of Birds of Prey, Deadpool, Superman, Justice League of America, and Wonder Woman, reads superhero comics because she hates them.
  • Same person who previously had the same entry on Unpleasable Fanbase. Doesn't belong here either, really. We'll have to see where it pops up next.

Joseph Leito: I removed a budding flame war:
  • As a sub example, it's incredibly common to refer to Japanese as "moonspeak". Nice to know that good ol' fashioned racism has found a place in this pointless debate.
    • It's a joke, but go ahead, cry more.

Rebochan: Aw, but it's funny to watch the /b/tards come in and whine that they're excused from being racist because they're just joking.
Is it just me, or is the Yahtzee entry (and maybe one or two others) repeated almost word for word in two or more different sections? It's late, so I'm not feeling up to confirming myself. Maybe someone else can?

Rebochan: Looks like you were right. I merged a little of the entry under Web Original in the Video Games entry. The Web Original also seemed to be trying to pick fights, where the other one was a bit more focused on this trope.
Joseph Leito: I'm about to go on a rabid clean-up of the "This Troper...s" and the budding flame wars, Take That! s, etc. in this article. Not going to post everything here that I remove. Wish me luck as I wade into the horrible mess.

Joseph Leito: K, I'm done. Changes look alright?
Feo Takahari: is it okay to put a work that doesn't have a *** proper, but does have a hatedom proper, and that I have been insulted by members of said hatedom for semi-maybe liking? (It's the movie adaptation of The Scarlet Letter. Go ahead and laugh.)
Dragon Quest Z: I changed the picture because it looked like basing someone simply for being a nerd. The current one is actually from the Confused Matthew review of Transformers (just watch the first part to know what I mean).
fleb: Uggggh. This page has something of an ugly persecution complex going on and it's causing major example bloat that's extremely repetitive in that bitterly sarcastic way ("You are not allowed to like X"), and without any elaboration or links it just sounds like setting up imaginary strawmen to vent about past flame wars. Sure, some people will say the things I like are the worst ever and I'm a dumbass for thinking otherwise, but who honestly cares? They're words! On the internet! Water, duck's back, etc.
  • Back when the Pit of Voles had its own articles about how to write ***, one about flaming revealed that, according to one flame, a Shota Con must involve an underage boy with older girls, while an underage boy with any sort of homoerotic feelings (even toward boys his age) is Yaoi. Needless to say, Shota Con was morally superior to Yaoi. Yes, that's right: Female pedophilia targeting males is more moral than male homosexuality, in the minds of straight Shota Con fanboys.
TsundeRay: Wait, stop, let me retrace your logic:
  • Underage boy + older women = shotacon
  • Underage boy + more underage boys = yaoi
  • Therefore, morality-wise, shota > yaoi
I'm having mental klaxons over this non-sequiteur. Is that your reasoning, or am I missing something here? Moreover, you're insinuating that every straight shotacon fetishist is a homophobe. I'm a straight shota fetishist. Are you saying I'm a homophobe?
Rebochan: You know, I refuse to even touch the Twilight series, but good god people, get over it. People like the books. You don't. Stuff this natter:

  • The defense of this hate stems from the idea strongly supported theory that just about anyone besides pre-teen to young-teen girls with overly-romanticized ideals of love and relationships can, and will, find something offensive about the books - these offenses being: 1) "sparkly" vampires (which are actually more like blood-sucking golems, so they're really just vamipres In-Name-Only), to piss off mythology/specifically-vampire fans; 2) one of the worst Mary Sues in literary history, to piss off writers/literature buffs; 3) not even a hint of anyone who isn't Wangst-ridden or batshit loco to piss off the Emo-Kid ***; 4) Bella and Edward's "odd" (read: abusive/obsessive/disturbing) relationship to piss off femanists/most progressive-thinking people; 5) The all-around lack of any real talent in the prose itself (not the story itself, but most critics agree the way the story is told isn't much more impressive than R.L. Stine's works), especially compared to other modern-fantasy writers like J.K. Rowling and R.A. Salvatore, to further piss off literary buffs. Combine all of these hot topics with a fanbase that tends to jump down the throats of anyone whosomuch as utters a word against it (and the criticisms are generally not ungarnered), and you're asking for trouble. Basically, Twilight and its fans are the literary equivolent of Scientology and its devotees, especially in practice, and with comparable backlash.

Just makes you look even more deranged and obsessed than the people reading the damn books. Hey yea, let's go ahead and compare a freaking fictional book series and the people who like it to a real-life cult! Cool, next we can compare its defenders to Hitler! Good lord, seriously, the only reason I even know about these damn books is because of how many people screech to the high heavens about how much they hate them.

  • These days, regardless of where you go, stating that you don't loathe George Lucas will get you brutally flamed. Saying that you enjoyed his more recent Star Wars (and Indiana Jones) work... well, let's just say that they will be carrying home your remains in a radioactive refrigerator thimble.

You know, at this point, I'm beginning to wonder if maybe some the examples are really Stealth Complaining About Shows You Don't Like. Sources, please. In fact, all I need is an IMDb message board discussion at minimum, because from what I've seen, it's more back-and-forth between bashers and defenders than unilateral flaming. {08/28/09)
The Jackal: Opposing this cut too. The examples are really whiny and the page needs an Example Sectionectomy, but I still think we need a page defining the term and we shouldn't get rid of the entire page.

Rebochan: Opposing the cut as well - not much point, the page can be cleaned up a bit, but we've got a lot of pages discussing the phenomenon that would need to go if we chuck this one. It's kind of important to the *** Tropes.
Does this trope include general burning hatred towards all of *** on the grounds that treating a hobby as identity is Stage 4 Soul Cancer?