This is discussion archived from a time before the current discussion method was installed.
Describe Enhanced Interrogation Techniques Discussion here.
Have cut out the chatter on the waterboarding entry and would like to politely request that people stop saying stupid things. -W.W.
Regiment: Sorry, W.W., but it's still going on. Cut
- Daniel Levin was a United States Assistant Attorney General. He went to a military base near Washington and underwent the procedure to inform his analysis of different interrogation techniques. After the experience, Levin told White House officials that even though he knew he wouldn't die, he found the experience terrifying and thought that it clearly simulated drowning.
- Also, until it became necessary to justify the practice, this act had always been called "Water torture". Just saying.
- Wanna get historical? Okay! Water boarding or water torture, whichever you prefer, dates back to the Spanish Inquisition, centuries ago, when it was clearly labeled, at the time it was created, as a torture technique. To claim that it is not torture is to fly in the face of common sense and, well, the Spanish Inquisition. Are you sure you want to do that? No? Good.
- Wow, this troper wasn't expecting the spanish inquisition...
- NOBODY expects the... Ah well. Obvious Joke, is it?
- The memos detailing exactly what procedures were used, how often, and on which Gitmo detainees have recently been declassified
. A thorough reading of these memos indicates that the 'waterboarding' technique used on the Gitmo detainees is exactly identical to a Navy SERE school training exercise (where only a small cupful of water is poured, and the maximum duration of keeping the wet towel over someone's mouth is 20-40 seconds before allowing the subject to freely breathe, as opposed to the Inquisition or Khmer Rouge "we actually drown them" version), and was in fact conducted at Gitmo by some of the SERE (Survival, Evasion, Resistance, and Escape) instructors, with medical doctors supervising the waterboarding with authority to stop it if the subject's health was in any kind of danger.
- Also, Air Force & Navy SERE schools have both used all of the other "enhanced interrogation" techniques (the difference is that the Navy version also uses the 'waterboarding', and the Air Force doesn't), singly and in combination, to an identical or greater extent on trainees for the past several decades. Pages 5 and 6 of memo #1 mention that literally thousands of US military servicemen have been subjected to identical — not similar, not analogous, but literally identical — treatment in training and not one of them has suffered permanent physical or psychological damage from it.
- Page 10 of memo #2 actually points out some of the techniques used in SERE training are actually more severe than what was done at Gitmo. The 'water dousing' (not waterboarding, something else) involved much colder water used on the trainees, immersion for longer periods of time, and "a situation where the water may enter the trainee's nose and mouth" (unlike the 'water dousing' used at Gitmo).
- The exact figures given for Air Force SERE training (page 5, memo 1) are 26,829 trainees subjected to the procedures between 1992 and 2001, of which approximately 0.13% dropped out of the training 'for psychological reasons', and zero of those displaying any long-term effects.
- Memo #2 goes into more detail on the exact circumstances of sleep deprivation and how long several Gitmo inmates were subjected to it. The average duration was 3-4 days. The longest done to a captured terrorist was 7 and a half days. The longest on record as done to US personnel in training was 11 days.
- Indeed, while some international law may consider this to be torture, the entire point of memo #1 is explaining exactly why US law doesn't agree. As with many discussions regarding the disputation of fine points of legal definitions and terminology, its a question of interpretation and splittin' hairs, so Your Mileage May Vary. On the other hand, even at worst you can still say that its apparently not as legally clear-cut an issue as previously believed.
- Used to be pretty clear-cut, especially in the aftermath of World War II when the US executed Japanese soldiers who had waterboarded American troops.
- Also, Air Force & Navy SERE schools have both used all of the other "enhanced interrogation" techniques (the difference is that the Navy version also uses the 'waterboarding', and the Air Force doesn't), singly and in combination, to an identical or greater extent on trainees for the past several decades. Pages 5 and 6 of memo #1 mention that literally thousands of US military servicemen have been subjected to identical — not similar, not analogous, but literally identical — treatment in training and not one of them has suffered permanent physical or psychological damage from it.
because it's my archnemesis Natter, and it's ridiculously self-contradictory. Look, whether or not you approve of waterboarding, there are a few undeniable facts here.
1) Waterboarding is an Enhanced Interrogation Technique. 2) This wiki obeys the Rule Of Cautious Editing Judgment.
I'd argue that it's silly to compare a technique being used on prisoners (who have no choice, and probably think they might actually be killed) and a similar technique being used as training (where the people being trained have at least a rudimentary idea of what they're getting themselves into, and know that they won't be killed). Look, nobody's calling waterboarding Cold-Blooded Torture (right?), so let's not split hairs. We don't care, at least on this Wiki, how ethical it is. It is an Enhanced Interrogation Technique, so let's please leave it at that.
