Archived Discussion

This is discussion archived from a time before the current discussion method was installed.

Susan Davis: Other than applying to shounen anime rather than Western animation or live action TV, how is this different from Disney Death?

flashinthepan: Oops, it isn't actually all that different. I didn't find the other article, sorry. Well, it's identical in effects and construction, but I think a main difference is that it applies mostly to series that have a built-in afterlife from which to bring the characters back, and rely on pushing the meaning of death to "temporarily inconvenienced", while a classic Disney Death is only pulled once, in the ending. Many examples at Disney Death apply to this article, though, and it seems quite possible to merge the two. Any ideas?

P.S. On second thought, let me rephrase and clarify that. This article describes a situation where death is eventually treated as a "status" a character can switch in and out of, while a Disney Death is used to bring characters back for a "proper" ending. So the Naruto example is more a Nobody Dies In Bleach, while Mai-Hi ME's Battle Royale With Cheese is a proper Disney Death. It is really hard to draw the line between the two, though...

P.P.S. Another thing: This article only refers to actual, physical, death in its normal sense, it's just that it's later revealed that death is not so bad after all. Many Disney Deaths are, retroactively seen, not deaths, just supposed deaths.

Lale: This doesn't duplicate Disney Death. It duplicates Back from the Dead.
  • fitp: The difference to that is quite clearly stated in the article: Back from the Dead means the character was meant to be Killed Off for Real which was reversed in hindsight, while this situation is a storytelling device with foresight.
Janitor: The point in the article about death being devalued by this practice is good. It isn't quite made in the two others. Rather than a merge, a split that focuses on this phenomenon — death-cheapening — might be the better play. It would also get more play as a main trope, rather than as anime-specific.
  • fitp: Mmmm... Sounds good. But the short summary would have to be "If your story includes characters coming back from the dead from the beginning, don't be surprised when nobody takes death seriously anymore eventually." To distinguish it from the Back from the Dead as stated above, which also cheapens death, but is used for a totally different reason.
Janitor Yup. There's your thesis ...
If your story includes characters coming back from the dead, don't be surprised when nobody takes death seriously.
... Howsabout Death is Cheap for a title?

Lale: Death Where Is Thy Sting

Kimiko Muffin: Hmm. I'd suggest something along the lines of "I thought you were dead!" "I got better." but that'd be too hard to make into Wiki Words ... (whereas Disney Death and Back from the Dead are "he wasn't quite dead")

Lale: Actually, Disney Death is "Not Quite Dead but close", and Back from the Dead "was very, solidly, officially, absolutely dead but is now alive again." I still think this is the same as Back from the Dead, but no one else agrees.

Ununnilium: Looking this over, it seems that the main thrust is Back from the Dead, used as a plot device, way past overuse. I'd say it's worthy of its own trope. Dragonball Z is probably the biggest example here — most seasons are die-die-die-die bring-everyone-back-with-Dragonballs. Mai-Hime wouldn't be an example, though, since the resurrection happens only once.

flashinthepan: To be fair, this distinction is made because Back from the Dead, as it is now (apart from the examples), is only about resurrecting people in hindsight, but the article doesn't actually have to only thrust that way. It could make the most sense to merge the parts of the implementation of this trope (this is what the author does) there, and keep the rest (you shouldn't do this because...) as its own article under a different title - Maybe Death Is But A Sleep?

osh: I can't get over who though this'd be a good trope title, especially one referencing a show that has a common noun as a title unless they were really uptight about dry skin.

Sunder the Gold: On the subject of Fate/Stay Night's Shirou, his line is actually a much-too-literal translation of his intent. What he means to say is that "People /should/ die when they are killed." This is significant in that he's saying he will take responsibility for his risks and accept the consequences of any action that could end up killing him. Not that he's looking down on Saber or Berserker, but the McGuffin/Phlebotinum(?) that allows him to survive death rightly belongs to Saber, not him, so he should make do on his own merits.

Fast Eddie: Will rename to Nobody Dies, unless objections are raised.

Morgan Wick: But the trope isn't about people not dying, it's about death itself being lessened. Death Is A Cold? I Was Dead But I Got Better? Death Is No Big Deal?

Tanto: I Was Dead But I Got Better makes me giggle uncontrollably.

Fast Eddie: Went with Death is Cheap

"Berserker, on the other hand, has the power to be killed 12 times before he dies, and comes back instantly without any adverse effects." William Wide Web: Isn't that Doctor Who? ;)
whitetigah: taken out:

the main villain of the Dark Tournament was supposedly killed in the mini-arc before that;

from the YuYu Hakusho section, because he wasn't dead, he was just faking it.

  • He's only really died three times, and the third is the aforementioned Killed Off for Real death. While he sort-of appears in the ZX series, it's as the above mentioned rock, which isn't actually ancient or a rock. While some insist that the first person shown in ZX to use said item resembled Zero, this ties in to the fact that with the exception of Serpent with Model W, all the "chosen ones" resemble the personalities of the Biometals they use, and are even color coded to the Biometal they specifically use.

Seems like just a Justifying Edit, with no real bearing on the example.

  • ...too bad it just shifts the cited Fridge Logic from "Why didn't anyone resurrect the King?" to "You're telling me nobody healed the King for twenty-four hours?" Death in standard D&D is cheap, but not nearly as cheap as those rules claim it is.

Conversation in the Main Page. "Yes, but it's not good" doesn't belong in here.
Da Wrecka: I'd like to take this opportunity to (only partially tongue-in-cheek) suggest a couple of alternate names for this trope; Frequent Dier Miles or Revolving Door Afterlife

Personally the former gets my vote.

Lord Seth: Query: As this is so prevalent in comic books, shouldn't we have a list of characters it has been averted with? (I don't think Gwen Stacey has ever come back, for example) I'm not too in tune with comic books, so I'd prefer someone more knowledgeable in that area did it.

Darekun: Among my D&D group, this trope was known as Fatal But Not Serious, after the Adam Warren Dirty Pair miniseries. And ISTR a big indie comic house in the 80s made a name for refusing to use this trope, on Darker and Edgier grounds, but I don't remember which one...
Mike Rosoft: Instead of arguing in the main article, I am moving the following comment regarding Discworld here:
  • Other than that though, this trope is surprisingly averted considering that Death is a main character, and is generally sympathetic to humans. The only two times He allowed someone to return to life were special circumstances; a child who Granny Weatherwax gambled Him for (He seems to have let her win) and a frozen match girl, who He was able to give "the gift of a future" due to His having taken the guise of the Hogfather (the local equivalent of Santa) at the time.
    • If you count all instances where Death allowed somebody not to die when he was supposed to, then there's:
      • Ysabell (whom Death adopted instead of allowing her to die);
      • Mort and Keli;
      • Imp y Celyn and the rest of his band
      • The child in Reaper Man (allowing her to burn to death made sense to Death, but not to Bill Door)
      • The dog Thcrapth Scraps (where he actually allowed him to return from the dead, justifying it as the only way to get his scythe back)
      • The rat Dangerous Beans (he agreed to take another life of Maurice the cat in his place)