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This is discussion archived from a time before the current discussion method was installed.

What about the sex in Twilight?

Ununnilium:

Buffy the Vampire Slayer, more recently, refined the trope to "the couple had sex, the relationship is doomed."

This seems really off-point. Anyone mind if I yank it?

Lale: Go ahead. This wiki long ago turned into "Tropes Used By Buffy The Vampire Slayer and Other Shows."

Morgan Wick: Or "Tropes Used By Avatar and other shows."

Nemi: What about the preying mantis teacher episode?


Lale: We have Twin Tropes. Should we have an index for Sex Tropes? Well, maybe with a different title.

Seth: Wouldn't hurt. Sex Tropes works as a name (An index is better served by a literal title).

Lale: Here's hoping the Media Watchdogs aren't watching...
Jeff Bewlay: I was wondering, since it has at least one TV subversion and another film subversion is there a reason the text still notes it hasn't been subverted?

Ununnilium: A good point; I'm yanking it.
What, not "Death By Snu Snu"? —Document N

movie007: I just added that one. I'm sure it would count.
Tolkien & Middle-earth

Tolkiendil: How is the policy on wrong trope-examples? The Middle-earth reference is plain wrong, further promoting a widespread error. Tolkien's Elves do not die or become mortal when in love with or marrying a mortal; and Elves and humans do not go to the same place after death. Arwen's case is special because she is half-elven and can choose to be one or the other. Lúthien's case is an explicitly once-only case of divine intervention after she already died an elven death. As such, Lúthien is the only elf to have ever truly died, and left the world as mortal human souls do. All other (non-half-elven) elves cannot ever become mortal. The only thing related to the topic (but not fitting the trope definition) is "Death by Rape": Word of God states it would be so traumatic for Elves that they would not survive.

Further comment to entry: Elves cannot die a mortal death, by conscious choice or otherwise. Lúthen was an explicitly once-only case, and Arwen was a half-elf which comes with the ability to choose (like other people of her family). Therefore Mithrellas, nor any other elves in mixed couples, could not have become mortal or died mortally (ehm...you know). I would really like to cut the entry down or remove it completely, as it is not relevant to the trope in question. Arwen and her great-great-grandmother did not die because of having sex, and even less because of a moral judgement about said relations. And yes, elves consider the consummation as legallly and spiritually binding the couple together, but that has never killed anyone. All the elves from mixed couples were just fine and still immortal after their marriage, including Lúthien, who only became (physically and cosmically) mortal after her resurrection. Making Elros' and Arwen's conscious choice (and Eärendil's almost-choice) to become mortal the result of having sex with a mortal is incorrect.

As no rule could be found if wrong examples had to remain on the page. Copied from the article:
  • The Lord of the Rings-verse has a few laws regarding this sort of thing. Note what happens to Beren & Luthien and Aragorn & Arwen.
    • Not sure those really count, as the women in both cases were elves who only died because they became mortal to be with their loves. The (implied) sex did not directly (or even indirectly) cause their deaths.
    • Actually, the sex does count, as it has been explicitly mentioned in the Word of God (Laws and Customs Regarding the Eldar, Morgoth's Ring Vol. X, History of Middle Earth) that "bodily union achieves marriage". Tolkien believed that a marriage signifies a life partnership and the intertwining of souls. Therefore, when Luthien and Arwen slept with their husbands, their souls were bound indefinently to their lovers and their fate.
      • OBJECTION! Yes, physical consummation of a marriage makes it legal for the Elves. But Tolkien's Elves do not die or become mortal because they loved or had sex with a human, and neither Lúthien or Arwen did because of that. If that were the case, several others would have to have become mortal too (Aegnor, Finduilas, Idril Celebrindal, Mithrellas). FACTS: Lúthien dies and is offered by the 'gods' the choice to either return to a life as an elf, or to return to life with her dead husband, and to both die a mortal death. Yes, elf-death and human-death is different here and souls end up in separate places. Arwen is a half-elf and as such, to not cause the 'gods' a headache trying to fit her into the cosmic categories, gets to choose herself whether she will live, and more importantly die, as an elf or a human. Both Lúthien and Arwen choose to live with their mortal lovers, and for their souls to be able to follow them after death. So rather the first was "Second Try at Life with a Mortal Death by Divine Intervention", and the second "Mortal Death by Inherited Cosmic Right to Choose". (cf. Discussion)