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Pure Hate launched as Complete Monster Discussion: From YKTTW


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Fighteer: The page description was revised, per the forum discussion thread here. Please prune any examples that do not fit the new description. Thanks.


Trigger Loaded: Pruning some videogame examples. Explaining why here:

Same goes for Matt Engarde in Phoenix Wright Ace Attorney: Justice For All. Dahlia did what she did for money, power, and revenge. Matt didn't need any of those. As a highly successful and popular TV star, he already had money and power, and since his rival always came up just beneath him, he didn't need revenge, either. He played the emotions of his rival, manager, former manager/rival's fiancee, his lawyer, the prosecutor, his lawyer's assistant, and the assassin he hired to kill his rival against each other and themselves just because he could, all while seeming harmless and completely clueless.

Matt Engarde didn't even kill anybody personally himself. A manipulative bastard who played everyone around him and had no regret for what he did, but lacks that personal touch. And he did have a reason to get rid of Jean Corrida. Jean was threatening to oust his true self.

Let's not forget Ephidel, the man (not) whose job description apparently consists almost entirely of stabbing old people. And Limstella, who kills more plot-relevant characters than anyone else. And Nergal, who tells the aforementioned three what to do. And King Desmond, serial fox-kicker. And a weird variation in playable character Renault, a reformed Complete Monster.

When you're listing a group of people, you're missing the point of Complete Monster.

Gears of War goes out of its way to make sure the Locust fall under this. They start off by launching a sudden genocidal war against humanity as a whole, and proceed through the series to butcher humans whenever they find them. It Gets Worse in Gears of War 2, where the Locust begin kidnapping humans for the express purpose of torturing them, and their treatment of prisoners is so savage that Tai Kaliso commits suicide after escaping, and Maria Santiago is reduced to a broken, mindless shell that Dom is forced to put to rest.
It actually becomes all the more scary since the Locusts not only believe they are in the right, but that they themselves are fleeing the underground from an apparently even worse enemy.

Complete Monsters should be individuals, not a completely alien race whose motivations we can barely figure out.

Quaestor Verus from Baten Kaitos Origins comes off as a completely unsympathetic character when you find out the truth about him near the end of the game. He used Sagi, the game's protagonist, in the maladeiter experiment while Sagi was a baby (the sinister nature of this act is far more chilling when Verus is implied to be a biological father of Sagi). Verus also lies that he is a spiriter and uses everyone, including other villains, to secure his ambition for the throne of the Empire. As soon as the party defeats Baelheit, he doesn't hesitate to show his true colors by killing Baelheit and taking control of the massive fortress that Baelheit built. Watching this bastard die by his own machina is one of the most satisfying moments in the game.
Making matters worse is the fact that most people (both in the game and in real life) trusted him and believed he was a good man, although most of them didn't exactly like him. One of the few who did was so hurt by his betrayal that he loses his affinity for humanity (and arguably his sanity) and becomes the Big Bad of the sequel.
Before Verus shows his true colors by killing Baelheit, you were told by a seemingly random Mook working for Verus that a certain room was where Verus went to speak with his guardian spirit. If you enter Verus' house after the aforementioned event, you'll find his house deserted, so you can finally satisfy your curiosity and enter that room... though it's probably a BAD idea.

This description really needs work. I'm not getting a Complete Monster vibe, just a power-hungry individual. There's mention of something done to a kid, but too much bullets and natter reduce the effect.

And before Caulder, there's the Evil Duo of Admiral Grayfield and Jerk Jock Waylon. Those guys are the epitome of selfishness, and from beginning to their ends, all the players want with them is to punch their faces in. To elaborate a bit more, we're first presented to them and their army as La Rťsistance against an opposite country's army, so the good guys decide to join them, which soon they discover was one hell of a bad move. Grayfield sends Brenner's squad into very difficult mission, and in one of them, he even gives idiotic orders to make him (that is, you) fail so he can polish his own image. Later, he kills an honorable man who surrendered after his defeat simply for the hell of it, since he didn't even wait for the poor guy to open his mouth. After that Moral Event Horizon, the good guys decide to help the "enemy" prisoners and ditch Grayfield, but are met with the asshole's full force. In the end, Brenner pulls a Heroic Sacrifice to let the others escape and ends up cornered and wounded in an abandoned building. What does Grayfield do? Order Waylon to drop the bombs on him, that's what he does! Speaking of which, Waylon doesn't fall behind, always saying in a joyous and hip manner that since they're in a world After the End, they don't need to use their military power to protect the innocent and weak, and instead just to whatever the hell they want, even if that means killing said innocent and weak. Just to get the point across, his Leit Motif is called The Flight Of The Coward. Oh, what joy gamers felt when Will delivered a glorious Shut Up, Hannibal! at Waylon before promptly blowing him up, and when Lin didn't hesitate in shooting Grayfield down. The only bad thing the deaths of these guys brought was, of course, clearing up the stage for Caulder...

Waylon's just a self-serving jerk who follows orders. Greyfield was more a Smug Snake and a blowhard. I'm still uncertain of Caulder's presence. I'll clean up his trop entry, though.

Ghadius from Klonoa fits this trope. he really doesn't mind that releasing Nahatomb will destroy Phantomile and everyone along with it, this includes himself, he simply does it because he he hates everyone. But it's mainly a case of Taking You with Me

... Again, there's not a Complete Monster here, just a mad villain who wants to destroy everything. Not every Omnicidal Maniac is a Complete Monster.

Please can we remove Johann Liebert as the poster boy for this trope - even if you don't believe in his Freudian excuse (warped, granted, but plenty still), viewing him this way because "it says Monster in the title, duh" takes most of the point out of the narrative, and at best removes Tenma from serious hero to Why Don't Ya Just Shoot Him?, both of which suggest a lack of appreciation for the manga/anime in itself. Anyway, what other page leads this way? For what it's worth, I do think he has a reason (hardly a justifying one, mind you) for killing the foster parents: he's aiming to cover his tracks, and possibly Nina's.
  • Paireon: Personally (and this being a subjective page, it's relevant), I think Tenma's conflict is more along the lines of "Sure, he should be killed for the good of humanity, but does that give me the right to do it? Will my doing it corrupt me as he probably wants? Will it be the catalyst for another of his plans?" Those seem perfectly valid arguments to someone with Tenma's morals and ethics.
    • I thought the aim of the last round of discussion was to de-subjectivize the page? And I'm not saying he's a nice guy (let alone someone any sane person would want as a babysitter), but surely a "poster boy" version of a trope should be less debatable, i.e. it should be really clear that their Freudian Excuse doesn't hold up, etc.? I'd agree Tenma's reasons to hesitate can be read in a number of ways, and I'm partly reluctant even to be making the argument, in case it makes anyone think I'm fine with killing/mind-raping people, but I do think it makes a difference that the one person who unequivocally argues Johan is unredeemable is Johan, who's even so desperate to hold onto his Complete Monster identity ("No. It's too late for that") that he'll hold a child hostage to force the issue, while Tenma struggles with the decision, and Nina offers forgiveness. If there's a need for a poster person, wouldn't someone like Marie L'Angelle (Gran'ma) from Preacher make more sense?
      • A Freudian Excuse only gets you so far. Johan murdered his caregivers and his sister's adoptive family, and taught small children to jump off of buildings. But let's just look at his character in the most general terms: he is a person willing to indiscriminately (barring Nina and Tenma) destroy the entire world because he himself was corrupted. That is the embodiment of selfishness and sociopathy. Another reason why I think he should stay the poster boy is precisely because of the level of depth and the amount of deconstruction that the series engages in regarding this trope.
      • This may just be showing that I find the trope as such a problem - as far as it's even defined clearly by this point, which still seems arguable - so I won't keep on about it after this. But: picking as a poster boy a character from a work one of whose main points is to problematize the very trope under discussion (Complete Monster) still seems a bit odd, logically. As does the idea that "X does really vile things=X is a complete monster", especially applied to a character whose motivations are murky and open to interpretation. This does not mean killing your foster parents, let alone instigating a Kill 'em All plot because you think Humans Are Bastards (kids and yourself included, but not Nina and Tenma), is a good thing (these are bad things and should be stopped where possible) but it's a bit of a leap from this to the claim that doing so shows the agent in question to be an unequivocal Complete Monster, especially when the possibility that he suffers from some kind of Split Personality is left open.
      • I think that the fact that the trope is played with and deconstructed in Johann is actually a very good reason to keep him as the posterboy, since he's the most fleshed out and comprehensive example we have

TGR: Judge Holden should be the poster boy of this trope....he fits this trope perfectly.

Some New Guy: Ok, what the hell? Some examples were removed because the series itself wasn't "dark and serious"?? Since when does the series' tone determine if it can have a Complete Monster?
  • That's one of the requirements according to the re-write, I believe. It has to do with eliminating two-dimensional characters.

Troper On A Stick: WHY is there a blank Troper Tales page? At least put a quip there. I'll do it myself if I think of one.

Master Ghandalf: Put Cronal and Onimi back inÖ again. Since weíre going by the new definition, Iíll give a point-by-point explanation of why both should be there.

1. Read my description of Cronal- the guyís way beyond the Moral Event Horizon. Onimi Mind Rapes his Supreme Overlord (admittedly a Complete Monster in his own right) and uses him to launch a war that causes the deaths of trillions. 2. Cronal has no Freudian Excuse. Onimiís- that he was an abused member of the bottom rung of Yuuzhan Vong society- doesnít hold as there are plenty of other Shamed One characters who arenít Omnicidal Maniacs. 3. Cronal shows only cold satisfaction in his actions. Onimi expresses active joy at the prospect of killing every living thing in the galaxy. 4. Cronal is feared by all other characters in the story. Onimi isnít, but thatís because heís The Man Behind the Man. The Fake Boss he uses as his puppet is feared, so thatís fear-by-proxy. 5. Both Shadows of Mindor and New Jedi Order are dark. Cronalís scenes are disturbing looks into the mind of a Nietzsche Wannabe, and Onimiís reveal of his true nature is very creepy. 6. Both characters are Big Bads. Their defeats come at the climax of both their stories. 7. Neither is redeemed, and neither shows the slightest hint of wanting redemptions. Onimi gets melted, and Cronal is apparently destroyed, though itís somewhat inconclusive (fan speculation is that Lucasfilm might want to use him as Big Bad again at some point).

OK, should have noticed this earlier, but why was Mokuren from Flame of Recca removed from the anime/manga section? He hits pretty much every requirement dead-on, plus he manages to give another character (who was portrayed up to that point as pretty monster-ish herself) an Alas, Poor Villain death. Bastard comes back at least twice after being beaten, and you just hate him more every time.


Justice Gundam: I still maintain that Kurata from Digimon Savers should be in this page, big time. Why? Let's look at him by going through the seven points traced by the trope's description:

1- Kurata's actions. At first, he just seems to be a Dirty Coward who hides behind people when there's danger, and we immediately see that he's kind of shady. Then, next thing you know, he has one of his Gizumon mortally wound Mercurimon, who ends up dying a slow, horrible death as his data are permanently erased. And he reveals that his objective is Digimon genocide and that he's already tried that in the past, ten years before, resulting in Frigimon's death along with thousands of innocent Digimon. AND that his Gizumon have been created using the life energy - essentially the soul - of the slain Digimon (only the vilest villains harm souls). Then, he reveals to have created Bio-Hybrids through manipulation of Digital code and human DNA... and a few episodes later, when El Doradimon is forced into the Real World, he unites all the Gizumon into a huge superweapon, and uses that to destroy the defenceless Gentle Giant and slaughter the whole population. Any survivors are pursued and killed by the Gizumon. And then he tops THAT off by forcing Tohma into a Face-Heel Turn by strapping an explosive collar to the boy's terminally ill sister Relena's neck, threatening to kill her unless Tohma becomes his accomplice. And in the end, he awakens Belphemon, one of the most dreadful Digimon ever to exist, to completely destroy the Digital World and conquer the Real World, threatening to burn to ashes any country who opposes him. Quite a criminal record, I'd say...

2- Kurata's Freudian Excuse. A couple Digimon growled angrily at him when he was in the Digital World, so he decided that all Digimon are evil and must be exterminated. Oh, and he wanted to plain old conquer the world, natch.

3- Kurata's attitude. He is shown happily snacking on a lollipop as he watches his Gizumon slaughter innocents. To him, it's like watching an amusing movie.

4- Other characters' reaction regarding Kurata. All the heroes hate him with a burning passion, especially Masaru. His Quirky Miniboss Squad is, at best, neutral to him: Ivan worked for the money, Nanami was very much The Starscream and Kouki dislikes him, not out of moral standards, but because he hates authority and wants to kill Digimon his own way. No morally decent character likes Kurata.

5- The series had already taken a darker spin before, but Kurata managed to make it even more so. Remember, the only other season where Digimon die permanently was Digimon Tamers, and we all know it wasn't exactly a walk in the sunshine. While Kurata may seem to be Evilly Affable at times, his actions are presented as nothing less than pure evil.

6- Kurata is the Big Bad of the series. Yes, I know, the final battle is against Yggdrasil... but Yggdrasil wouldn't have tried to destroy both worlds if Kurata hadn't fired the first shot. Everything that goes wrong in Savers is Kurata's fault. Had he won, the Digital World would have been destroyed, and countless humans would have been killed under his dictatorship. At best. At worst, well... So, defeating Kurata was a vital part of the plot.

7- Kurata would never dream of doing an Heel-Face Turn. A lot of Digimon fans hope that, in the end, he was whisked off to the Dark Ocean to suffer forevermore... or, at the very least, desintegrated.

Kurata covers all seven points of the trope. Therefore, Complete Monster it is.

Stranger: I honestly didn't know there was any form of controversy about Kurata's place here. How and why could anyone honestly think he DOESN'T belong in this trope?


insofar: amitai, there are many other factors of Johan that do create a dark and troubled past. Whether the memories were his or not is not really the issue, since he was emotionally unstable enough to mistake them for his own; Kinderheim 511 corrupted him nonetheless; and his early childhood and his mother's "choice," coupled with the identity issues he must have had from being dressed like his twin sister the entire time... Right?

213.7.30.124 - stop.


Paireon: Okay, somebody REALLY NEEDS TO STOP USING A MOTHERFUCKING CHAINSAW TO EDIT THE PAGE. The Dungeons and Dragons examples have been fused with the Exalted examples, for crying out loud! Really, if you've got the time to edit this wiki then DO IT RIGHT!

Oh, and Justice Gundam: mind if I take your Kurata text above, edit it a bit, and put it back in? I'd already put him back in once, but looks like I didn't make a good enough case for SOMEBODY (who doesn't even have the minimal courtesy and courage to identify himself and/or express his/her reasons). Sorry about my tone but this is really starting to piss me off. It's perfectly fine to be opposed to some entries, and to make your case known, and to discuss it here in a constructive way; but clumsily editing out everthing you don't like, often without giving a damn about what you're chopping out along with it is vandalism, pure and simple.

Hello86 I think that Miyo Takano ought to come back on this page. To put it briefly: She may have had a crappy childhood, but she directs her most vile acts towards innocent people. She was utterly ecstatic when Hinamizawa got snuffed out in the penultimate arc; and she's basically responsible for the unending nightmare of the series. Anyone who doesn't agree, can you give your reasons? This is a debate.
Someone should mention the game Virgin Roster. You actually -play- as an admitted rapist who mentally abuses women until they become his sex slaves, then sells them or pimps them when he gets tired of them.

Paireon: By that reckoning, a huge number of villains (both antagonists and protagonists) from non-comedic hentai anime, manga and games are Complete Monsters; listing them all would at least double the page's length. Perhaps a simple entry stating that fact would be better.


Debussy Alright {{213.7.30.124}}, Linton Barwick of In the Loop may not be a Complete Monster to you, but he's not a General Ripper either. Unlike General Miller in the same film, he was never a military man. He certainly has some similarities- mainly the Total Commitment- but nowhere near enough to make him a true General Ripper.


I've removed this

  • Sakura in one Heaven's Feel bad end. If you fail to finish off Black Saber, Sakura consumes Rin and subjects her to all of the abuse she endured in the Matou family. She gleefully tells Shirou that Rin was a virgin and is already crying and begging for mercy on her first day of torture. Too bad shirou doesn't get the chance to finish her off before she eats him too.

Whilst this act is almost certainly a Moral Event Horizon crossing, and would therefore make her a Complete Monster, it's redundant to put it here. She only carries out one truly evil act (out of her own, even impaired, free will) in the entirety of the game (bad ends included), and this is it. Prior to this, she is not a Complete Monster. Her backstory excuses the relatively minor bad acts she does carry out, and she actually passes up several opportunities to kill Rin and Shirou (even begging them to run away). Plus, her redemption is generally accepted, and she's certainly not universally hated. Even as Dark Sakura, she never does anything truly unforgiveable (or, in fact, even particularly bad) prior to this act. Following it, the game just ends. Since this act is the only bad thing she does, it belongs in Moral Event Horizon, not in Complete Monster. Otherwise, we would just end up duplicating the whole Moral Event Horizon list word-for-word.


Metal Shadow X: What if we add a new trope where someone crosses the Moral Event Horizon, but isn't quite a Complete Monster? Or a sub-trope for those (Like FF 6's Kefka) we love to hate?


[[Ericho]]: I have no clue why Madara keeps leaving this page.

1- Madara unleashed the nine-taled fox on Konoha willingly and is directly responsible for it and all the pain and suffering caused.

2- Madara has no Freudian Excuse (or none that I know of, if someone could give me one, I'd be glad).

3- Madara shows no regret at all. When asked if he's even doing it for the sake of peace like perhaps Pain, he simply says he isn't and does it all because he wants to control everyone in the world.

4- There are plenty of characters like Naruto and even the Fourth Hokage himself who are absolutely disgusted by him. The Fouth Hokage was willing to give the benefit of a doubt to a person who destroyed his village (Pain), yet even claims that Madara is a true villian.

5- Madara is a character who manages to surpass Itachi and Pain as being evil. Many fans thought of these characters as Complete Monster kinds themselves, but showing that Madara was manipulating them just shows how utterly iredeemable this guy is.

6- Madara is probably the most powerful member of the Akatsuki, if not the most powerful villian living or ever introduced as no one can even lay a finger on him. If he wins, EVERYONE loses FOREVER.

7- Characters like Pain and Itachi were at least able to (or try to) do something good in the end, but Madara easily surpasses them in evil as he is simply an immoral monster who has concerns for no-one but himself, confirmed by his master plan to control everyone in the world.

He is perhaps the deadliest foe in the entire series who would willingly slaughter everyone in sight with no remorse whatsoever. At least I'm willing to give Danzo the benefit of the doubt (although I firmly believe Danzo belongs here too), but there's no reason at all why Madara Uchiha should not be here.
Who would be the Most Triumphant Example of this Trope be? Johan?
  • Most Triumphant Example is a subjective trope
    • Humor me: if we were to take a straw poll, would he be the odds on favorite?

Some New Guy: Oh, Crap, the chainsaw editors are back...and I honestly want to know what Madara doesn't qualify. (and the others too, except Hidan, which the chainsaw editor explained, albeit kinda poorly) Super Saiya Man: Its because they don't like to see Complete Monsters in Naruto. Hidan DOES qualify, he murdered his entire peaceful village since he was disgusted with the peace and for the lulz.
I would like to know why Commodus keeps getting deleted despite 1)murdering his own father, 2)trying to rape his sister, 3)usurping a throne, and 4)killing a whole bunch of other people. At this point, it seems like the chainsaw editor has a case of Draco in Leather Pants and does not want his/her characters seen as monstrously evil.
  • I haven't done it, but whoever has been must be aware of how grossly historically inaccurate his portrayal was (he was basically a decent guy).
    • I don't see how that's relevant at all

Zephid: Probably because of the line "A Freudian Excuse is either not present, or inadequate to excuse his behavior." Commodus has a perfectly adequate Freudian Excuse. Hell, he murders his father as his father admits that he screwed up Commodus's childhood. Commodus is tragic, but not Complete Monster material.
  • Um, what? Neglect is maybe adequate enough to justify not getting your father a Christmas present, or something, not to fucking kill him and a score of other people. Hell, Johan has a Freudian Excuse strong enough to completely take away his culpability, and he's the poster boy here.
Zephid: You forget the hero-worship he piled on his father too, the enormous amount of prestige the position of Emperor had, etc. Commodus wanted to be like his father, and then he's told that his father is going to dismantle the Empire and deny him his dreams, when all he wants to do is be like him. Commodus has understandable motives. Also, Brother-Sister Incest + Rape Is Love does not equal Complete Monster. Commodus is Smug Snake at best.
  • Understandable motives =/= justified in committing atrocities. I stand by what I said - being neglected by your father does not in any circumstance excuse killing him.

insofar: Can we stop referencing Hitler right after asking for people not to name real life examples? It's not clever, it's annoying.
Some New Guy: God damnit, Future...readding the valid examples. Again.
  • Seriously. The whole point of making this an objective trope was so that we could have some standards. If a villain clearly fulfills all the criteria, why the hell would you remove him?

MC Dirty: For some reason, the quote at the top doesn't make much sense. If the boy doesn't have a sense of good and evil, he can't be evil. He's not immoral, but amoral (No, that doesn't have anything to do with love). Is there a trope covering this?

Darth Howie: Sure it makes sense. Many a complete monster claims to be Above Good and Evil but his actions are horrific and monstrous enough to earn him this trope. Now, that quote might not jibe with For the Evulz, but it's perfectly fine for a Complete Monster. This trope is about what he does and his effect on the story, not his motives or lack thereof.

Paireon: I agree with Howie on this one. Just because Evil Cannot Comprehend Good (or even evil, in some cases), it doesn't make it any less evil.
Malkyrian: This seems overly long to still be a single page. I was thinking of dividing it under the Monster/Genre namespace, but I'd like to get at least a second opinion on this first.

Darth Howie: Go for it. I'd do it myself, but I don't have the time.
deeman45: Should one take into account a character's motivations when deciding a Complete Monster? There are plenty of horrible characters out there who don't only act out of a sheer desire to be unfathomably evil; if a character were to torch a village, causing hundreds to burn to death horribly, simply because they felt like being evil that day and the village was conveniently close by, that would probably count as a Moral Event Horizon event and cement the character as a Complete Monster, right? But what if that same character performed those same actions, but this time he was paid to torch the village, or perhaps he wanted to take down one particular villager and didn't care if the others were in his way. Isn't the character still a Complete Monster? Callously putting money before myriad human lives or deciding that a grudge is worth killing bystanders over is still pretty damn horrible; do the slightly more realistic motivations lessen the impact of the actions to non-Complete Monster status, compared to the first instance where the motivation was just OMG EVUL?
  • Complete Monster doesn't mean 'acts out of sheer desire to be evil'. In fact, to me, that sort of character is 'more' sympathetic, because there is clearly something wrong with them (for example Kotomine Kirei, who despite some exceptionally hideous acts is not considered a Complete Monster by most fans). However, at the same time, motivation still matters. If you burn down a village for money to buy yourself yet another gold ring, or to kill a person you didn't like because he shouted at you once, or because otherwise he's going to foil your plan for world domination, you're a Complete Monster. If, on the other hand, you did it because that one person would otherwise kill your entire family, you're quite possibly not, if that person would otherwise have destroyed the whole world, you're definitely not, and even if that guy had, in the past, murdered your entire family (and you just wanted revenge), you might well still not be. Similarly, if you needed the money to save your dying son, then you're probably not either. Yes, these are still evil acts (except maybe the 'kill the world destroyer' one), but because the character has sympathetic motives, they're not Complete Monsters. On the other hand, if they're just being greedy and entirely selfish, then IMO they're more likely to be a Complete Monster than if they're doing it For the Evulz.
    • Alright, that's cleared up for me. I know that a person could be a Complete Monster and still have a Freudian Excuse, but I didn't know if their motives could petty/realistic other than a desire to be evil could excuse them as well. But yeah, the burning down of a village to stop a potential Omnicidal Maniac definitely doesn't count either.

A good comparison is Kotomine Kirei vs. Matou Zouken from Fate/stay night. Kotomine's actions are actually worse (he actively goes out to destroy the world), and his motivation is purely to do evil things. Zouken, on the other hand, acts purely selfishly, and whilst his actions in Heaven's Feel nearly destroy the world, he does not aim to do so. However, he gets very little sympathy from the fandom (justifiably), despite being shown to have, originally, had a pretty good motivation for his actions (he suffered serious Motive Decay, and ended up just seeking to be immortal). Kotomine, on the other hand, was just born evil, and couldn't feel good except when doing evil things. As a result, even though his actions are actually more intentionally destructive, he gets a lot more sympathy. It helps that the effects of Zouken's past actions are more explicit (poor, poor Sakura) too.
Who deleted the caption for the picture of Johann, and why?

Michael JJ: If I remember right, the argument was that the caption said it wasn't even the close to the worse thing he did, which wasn't accurate. IOW, it was pretty close to the worst. I don't know who removed it though.

Grazzt: Actually, I'd say it was a reasonably generous action, at least to Johan's way of thinking. He had learned that he couldn't force Dr. Tenma to shoot him when he was just standing there and not being an immediate threat to anybody. Tenma wouldn't take a life just because Johan was evil. Pointing a gun at the boy's head gave Tenma every right, both legal and moral, to take him down. Note the look on Johan's face: he's essentially lost at this point and this is his way of throwing in the towel.
Paireon: What happened to the Warhammer40000 examples under Traditionnal Games? It's not like anyone can really doubt their belonging there. We are talking about the original Grim Dark setting.

Future: I think Johan Liebert deserves to stay on the page, even though he manages to both deconstruct and subvert the "evil" stereotype. Sort of like superhero pages which include Watchmen, even though it's a deconstruction. And that picture should stay too.
  • And I remember a whole bunch of Warhammer40000 examples, though they would fit much better under Crosses the Line Twice or even Dead Baby Comedy. Their over-the-top brutality is meant to be entertaining, not sickening. I doubt any fans feel the same way about these Warhammer villains as we feel about characters like Amon Goeth (Schindler's List) or John Doe (Seven). Remember, this is supposed to be one of the most depressing tropes.
Colonial1: Aaaand it's back. Trust me, some of the villains in the 41st Millenium are as far from funny as can be. Orkz are funny, and they are an entire species of brutal monsters, mainly because they act like extreme versions of English football hooligans.. Fabius Bile is one man, partly based off Mengele, and what he does is both frightening AND repulsive. The brutality of the Commissariat is darkly amusing(partly because of what they're based off), but the aftermath of a Chaos incursion is not. The entry stays. Don't scissor it off again, please.

Paireon: Agreed. 40K fluff is so insanely horrible it literally warps people's perceptions of morality and ethics, at least as far as said fluff is concerned. When the violently insane plant aliens are the comic relief and the stalinist mind-controled aliens are the misguided idealists, it's hard to view such a world objectively.

Colonial1: Could someone add some more entries to 40K? I'm not so good on specific characters beyond Fabius.
Paireon: Removed those, as they had been discussed before and judged not vile enough to be Complete Monsters.

  • Gaston in Beauty and the Beast is an egoistical and arrogant Villain with Good Publicity who has a crush on Belle, who rejects him. He even threatens to lock her father away in an asylum in order to make her marry him. However, when Gaston finds out about the Beast, he locks up Belle and her father in the basement of their house and sets to kill the Beast by himself. So definitely evil that he just does all this to get Belle.
  • Maleficent in Sleeping Beauty is an evil fairy. She curses Aurora to "prick her finger on the spindle of a spinning wheel and die" before the sun sets on her sixteenth birthday all because she's not invited to her christening. Then, after that, she torments Prince Phillip about the vision in her staff that he will stay in the dungeon until he is an old man while Aurora is young as the day she pricked her finger.

Future: I don't really know enough about Warhammer40000 to decide if examples from that should stay here or not. Several people have said that it's very Grim Dark, but I had the impression that it's more like Crosses the Line Twice. You know, really over-the-top things, like whole planetary populations being massacred because of an accident. Or those monsters who talk like football hooligans. Under "Tabletop Games", most 40k examples seemed too cartoonishly evil and just not hate-able enough to merit an inclusion on this page. However, under "Literature" there's an entry for a character from the Gaunt's Ghosts books. He is an actual example of a Complete Monster.
  • And really, did Warhammer "warp your perception of morality and ethics"? I don't know what to make of that...

Billy: I don't know. This page should really be a lot shorter, only for the worst of the worst. But as 40k fan, I agree that the Chaos followers and Orkz don't belong on this page. Lijah Cuu does.

  • Colonial1: Cartoonish evil, huh? Reading the novels OR the fluff, there isn't much that's funny. Chaos CAN be funny, in the sheer bloodthirstyness and insanity of it's followers, but sometimes it's only horrifying. Read Ghostmaker, then tell me Chaos is ALWAYS cartoonish. Also, as stated above: Commissars can funny in the gallows-humor over-the-top kind of way. On the other side of things, is the aforementioned Mad Scientist really funny? A Complete Monster is a Complete Monster. This trope is not as totally subjective as one would think.


  • Colonial1: Question: Why were examples of what Saren did edited out?

Future, can you lay off deleting Commodus for once?