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This is discussion archived from a time before the current discussion method was installed.

Working Title: Common Mary Sue Traits: From YKTTW

Tanto: Is somebody actually planning to blueshift all those Sue variants, or are they just on there for the hell of it?

DieHard: I'm in the process of it. I wanted to start this article since it was pretty much ready to go.
Wysp: Would it be safe to say that the Sueishness of a character is essentially directly proportional to the number of times the plot royally screws them over?

Ethereal Mutation: Assuming you mean inversely proportional (although the answer would be the same either way), I would have to say... no. Diabolus ex Machina and Deus Angst Machina can be just as infuriating as Deus ex Machina and there's nothing that states that things can't go relatively smoothly and still be believable. As Anti-Sue proves, whether or not they're a Mary Sue isn't directly related to the character's traits or general luck (although it will usually be "good enough"). It's more about how unrealistically the universe treats them (even if instead of giving them a free beer, it torches their home town). The Mary Sue article explains the effect.

Wysp: I know. I'm saying that one of the core principles of a Mary Sue, as noted on the Anti-Sue page, is that even if they have a lame life, the plot still bends to them. Meaning, the less the plot bends to them (Which usually end up in it screwing them up, due to the Ruleof Drama), the less Sue-ish it is?

Ethereal Mutation: Usually, but not always. It's one of those case by case things and depends on how believable the fiction is able to make it. It also bears mention that a lot of stuff simply wouldn't work if it didn't have some type of favoritism towards the characters. Imagine what it would be like in a standard sports movie if the Ragtag Bunch of Misfits lost too many games to make it to the semi-finals and the film ended with them playing their last scheduled games without any flair as they mope about, their dreams crushed and their positions as the third string of society reassured... it would be anti-climactic, a bit depressing, and generally make the build up (and, thus, the whole thing) feel like a giant waste of time. However, any concept can work so long as the work can make it believable. It varies a lot.

Harley Quinn hyenaholic: I just removed all the stuff about 'bonus points'. This isn't a litmus test.

Ethereal Mutation: I believe the "bonus points" were meant more to be cynical about the less redeemable use of the tropes than anything else. They certainly didn't correlate with any score that one could add up.

KiTA: Thought! The Official TV Tropes Mary Sue Drinking Game! Take a shot whenever you see bad grammar, take a shot whenever you see purple prose, down the bottle whenever the Sue turns into Mrs. Exposition. ... or not.

Serperoth: The [adjective], yet [another contradictory adjective] clause does not mean that all [adjective], yet [adjective] forms are Mary Sue traits right? It could be "small, yet soft pillow/hand/handkerchief", am I correct?


Nornagest: A cannon is a projectile weapon. Canon, in this context, is the set of authorially established facts of a setting. Please remember the difference.