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This is discussion archived from a time before the current discussion method was installed.

Looney Toons: Red Shoe, I'd beg to disagree with your recent addition. I'm no expert, but what little I've seen suggests that Camp evolved well after Wilde. Wilde did influence the general gay stereotype in Western culture — see the note that's been in Flamboyant Gay for months — but he was in no way Camp.

Red Shoe: My bad. I was, in fact, misremembering the comment from Flamboyant Gay based on something I'd recently read elsewhere.

Andyzero: The title made me think of something entirely different. Before I clicked, I was picturing shuffling off people in buses over the summer to a campgrounds where they made little pink triangles in the Arts And Crafts hut.

RedBeardSean: My image was much the same as Andyzero's, but I've seen enough of gay campgrounds to know that arts and crafts aren't the things being made there. ;-)

Scrounge: Would a "One time at band camp" joke be crass here? I'm not gonna make it or anything, I'm just saying that it seems like one is being invited.

Mister Six: Surely transvestism is not the same as drag queening, which is not the same as Camp Gay? Splitting/rewriting. Also! What's the difference between this and Flamboyant Gay?

Looney Toons: No, it's not the same as the other two, but transvestism is often included in the Camp Gay, so I've restored the bit you cut out. Have you never watched an episode of Monty Python with their horrendous and excessive gay caricatures? They're camp. The difference between Flamboyant Gay and Camp Gay is the difference between "swish" and "mincing with a purse in hand". Flamboyant Gay is gay and doesn't care if the world knows it; Camp Gay not only doesn't care, but takes out billboards in distant towns to let people there know.

Mister Six: Whereas I would have thought it was the other way around. In the UK, at least, a camp gay would be Jack from Will and Grace and a Flamboyant Gay would be Quentin Crisp. Visual comparison: Jack and Quentin.

Looney Toons: I don't watch Will and Grace and I haven't seen Quentin Crisp in any context in years, so I can't respond to your characterization. Can somebody else comment, please? But Six, it seems for some reason you feel the terms are inverted, and I don't know why — especially given that Camp has a very specific meaning that this article echoes.

Morgan Wick: "Camp" can mean anything, at least to a Viewers Are Morons American who only knows that the old Batman series is always described as such. "Flamboyant" instantly evokes, well, flamboyantness, so one would think that it would apply as much as possible. "Camp" can be construed to mean that one is "camped", i.e., understated.

In any case, is there really a distinction when it's only one of degree?

Mister Six: I don't think so, which is why I'm in favour of lumping. But as you say, "flamboyantness" suggests that it's further along the sliding scale than mere "camp". At the very least the articles' contents should be swapped.

Trouser Wearing Barbarian: I'd argue that there's a distinctive difference between being camp and being flamboyant, but these pages just come off like The Same but More of eachother. So Yeah.

I vote "merge."

Also, could we please quit with all the sissyphobia around here? I've had to remove several examples of this (mostly written by gay men) recently. The "it's okay to be gay as long as you act straight" crap is backwards homophobic idiocy that needs to die a painful death. Effeminate gay guys do exist, and they're just as "real" as you are. There's nothing wrong with being masculine, but if you're secure in your masculinity, you don't need to trash "flaming queens" and constantly tell everyone how manly and "straight-acting" you are to prove it. [/vent]

Count Choculitis: Yeah, seriously, these two need to be merged. And the description possibly fleshed out. If no one raises any objections, I'll go ahead and take a crack at it.

No objections? Okay, I'm on it.

Done. Thoughts? Cut the Eminem quote while I was at it, because it really had nothing to do with Camp Gay. Unless provoking homophobic panic in a rapper is a Camp Gay trait... oh.

Orange Aipom: Ew. Chatspeak. How gay. *flicks wrist* What does sexuality have to do with gender?

Is the mall officer from the latest arc in Schlock Mercenary a potential example, or am I just looking too hard? —Document N