This is discussion archived from a time before the current discussion method was installed.
Sean Tucker: What truly makes me rage is, all that's needed to smash the Animation Age Ghetto is one heavily-promoted series or movie aimed squarely at adults. Hell, if Funimation were to push Rebuild of Evangelion as hard as they possibly can and advertise it as much as any other release, that would do. But no, no one seems to want to do that. All the big anime distributors and TV producers are perfectly fine with animation being a completely niche market.
JorgeLopez: This page is one huge BAWWW from man-children. Nevertheless, I enjoy cartoons too, just not when I'm expected to gush over Wall-E or whatever animal crap has just come out.
Crazy Dan: Thank God for Adult Swim, huh guys?
Sean Tucker: ...no, not really. They're trying to kill anime, and everything else they have is Rated M for Money (or rated TV-MA for money, as it may be) with the sole exception of Moral Orel.
Ronka: Should Brave Little Toaster really be an example here? It's an example of an animated film that really is marketed at kids, while the trope is about adult-aimed animated programs that are misinterpreted as being kids shows just because they're animated. Scary scenes or no, Brave Little Toaster is firmly in the 'for kids' camp.
Ununnilium: Is it really cyclic?
Morgan Wick: Is Avatar really purely for adults, considering it's on the network that screams "we're for kids!" more than any other? Or is it just that it's more dramatic (and deals with more "adult" themes, but that can range from Parental Bonus to "still suitable for an after-show-talk with your 8-to-12 year old", though I haven't watched it) than most Western series that preceded it?
osh: Not for adults. But it's much like calling something a 'family movie' versus 'family-friendly'. You automatically put the assumption it's a boring movie for the average adult because of the stigma around those. A lot of fans are paranoid at calling something kid-friendly because most people assume that kind of entertainment is simplistic.
Space Ace: I don't know which Europe it is the author of this trope is talking about, but it's not the Europe where I live. Cartoons are actively squared into the "for kids" region here, never getting an "adult" timeslot and suffering that worst of indignations: dubbing. Television in The Netherlands is never dubbed, except cartoons. Because those are for kids.
It's a new development, by the way. I sure as hell didn't learn my English in school. It's all TV, baby! (as such I fear the next generation of Dutchmen will speak stereotypically crappy English)
The only cartoons I've ever seen on prime-time were Titan A.E., that horrendous Lord Of The Rings cartoon and Fritz the Cat. And the latter was basically furry porn.
DomaDoma: I... don't think Bakshi's Lord of the Rings was poorly received because of its cartoon status. I'm just saying.
That Other 1 Dude: While there are plenty of legitimate complaint about Bakshi's films (especially Lord of the Rings overuse of rotoscoping), a lot of people hated him for just doing stuff aimed at adults. A bunch of animators actually took a full-page add out in Variety telling him to "take his garbage back east".
Lale: Think I gave the wrong impression with that Plugged In Online reference. I thought having one example to quote would be nice, and it just happened to be the example.
Chazzers: The Animatrix was anime. A lot of it had a Japanese style that you don't see in Western media (except when it's toned down in animesque), and I would argue that that's because most Americans don't actually like it. Enough do to justify making it, but you could hardly expect it to be a mass-market success. It appeals to the same viewers as watch subtitled anime. Personally I didn't like it, not because it was animated but because I don't like anime.
I also have my doubts about comparing Justice League to well-made prime-time shows. The art quality is the same as Batman Superman Adventures, unlike Batman the Animated Series or Batman Beyond, which were legitimately well-made.
Pteryx: Concerning The Animatrix, I felt it was a mixed bag rather than consistently bad. The one with the runner stood out for me, while the two-parter trying to paint the machines as sympathetic made me wince.
Sean Tucker: The Animatrix is good, and it most definitely is anime. As far as I know, every one of the short films was animated by a Japanese studio, which makes it anime.
Is Vampire Hunter D any less anime because it was made with an English dub in mind?
s5555: This entire article is a misnomer.
In Japan, depending on the show, certain cartoons are easily labeled for kids and younger audiences, most notably many shounen. The only series that gains "respect" as an "artform" are those targeted for adults (seinen). In the most general of senses, your regular prime-time anime (the ones targets at both audiences) is no more art than the usual fare of dramas and game shows. The artistic ones are usually saved for feature films since they tend to have bigger budgets to spend on the quality of animation.
In Europe, it's less likely to view cartoons as "for kids" given many small independent and commercial animated films with deep meanings and also extend the medium beyond the percieve notion (See [i]When The Wind Blows[/i], [i]The Triplettes of Belleville[/i]). They have also been exposed to Japanese animation far earlier and longer than the US.
It is only America that is affected by this "Animation Age Ghetto" simply because the American public thinks in the most puritan of ways about animation (See Walt Disney and his incredibly conservative views).
HeartBurn Kid: You do realize that we have tropers that do not live in the US, and usually they're the one that added their country/region to the page, right? It's not as strong in many other places, and it can be even stronger in others. In fact, Japan may be the only place where animation is seen as just another medium, without any sort of "kiddie" stigma (and honestly, I've never been there, so for all I know, their local Moral Guardians might just be aghast). Video games are much the same way, but have more people actively working against said stigma (not that this helps with the mainstream media).
- Thacker: It's very untrue to claim that animation is "seen as just another medium, without any sort of "kiddie" stigma" in Japan. (I have been there, have friends there, and speak the language.) They are seen as for kids, at least the ones aired at normal hours; the local Moral Guardians got *very upset* about Neon Genesis Evangelion being shown in the after school block. The otaku who watch the shows aimed at kids are thought of as weird for being outside the aimed demographic; the shows aimed at otaku are shown at things like 1 and 2 am and get very low ratings. (But good sales.)
Iritscen: Thacker speaks the truth. Otaku who shop at Akihabara for anime and related goods are mocked by passing kids/punks, and Japanese people are just as likely to edge away from a middle-aged man who watches anime as they are here, in America (which frankly is completely hypocritical, seeing as many Japanese adults read manga). And the Japanese can be quite conservative towards anime (especially the national PTA, which are in fact the country's Moral Guardians).
- As I recall, the Japanese PTA boycotted "Hokuto No Ken", forcing the anime to be yanked until the blood could be recolored white.
Thus, seeing as multiple people above are in agreement with me, I have rewritten the part of the article that says Japan and some of Western Europe view cartoon stories as art. It now says simply that they may view anime/manga as stories before thinking of them as kids' stuff (perhaps my writing isn't the best at this time of night and could use some retouching, but that's what I was trying to say). Frankly, the article's language is still somewhat misleading in that section, but I thought toning it down from "viewed as art" to "sometimes viewed as stories first, kids' stuff second" was enough of a watering-down for one edit, I didn't want to take it further.
I still agree with the basic point about America having the worst attitude towards animation, and I enjoyed some of the article (the quote by C.S. Lewis is made of win), but it's true that the article probably needs more editing at some point to bring it closer to the truth about the Way Things Are.
Xenonex: I agree with what has been said in all the above paragraphs, but one point that still has some weight is that while in Japan shows targeted to children may be seen as childish (in many cases rightly so), in addition to that there are also SOME animated works seen as viable for adults. So just because ALL animated works are not seen as fit for adults in Japan, the fact that SOME are still means that animation as a medium isn't necessarily linked to age one way or the other. Which I believe is the point of the article, to promote the idea that animation need not have anything extrinsic projected onto it, whether it be 'universally childish' OR 'always artistic and mature.' It's a medium.
Filby: Took this out:
"Of course, the best animated feature Oscar itself could be seen as a smackdown for the genre, as it was clearly created to keep animated films from threatening the Oscar going to "real" movies."
'cause the paragraph above says basically the same thing.
Austin: It's not mentioned in this article, but Gargoyles has a fairly small fanbase, despite being an exceptionally well-written show. Does anyone know why that is?
Lale: Because it's not on the air anymore? I don't know if there are dvds or downloads of it, but nothing still compares to the suspense and anticipation of a plot still unfolding. I bet its fanbase was huge in the 1990s.
Computer Sherpa: Thanks to whoever linked that Soviet cartoon. Good stuff!
Zeke: AH! I just realized I've been reading this trope title wrong. It's not "Animation-Age Ghetto", it's "Animation Age-Ghetto". That makes a lot more sense. Has anyone else had this problem?
Sonic Panther: Wow... That makes a lot more sense now... I'm a moron.
Rogue7: I fail to see the difference between the two, honestly.
Zeke: Read "Animation Age" like "Information Age" and you'll get it.
Thausgt: So the only effective way to combat this is to track down (and, if necessary, create) animated movies and shows that focus on human relationships and talking, then show them relentlessly to anyone and everyone who dismisses animation as "kid stuff". Particularly, such movies and shows should be shown to young and impressionable kids who haven't acquired the knee-jerk prejudice against animation but have started showing an interest in how to deal with other people in ways other than beating them up physically. Yes, we would be opening another front on the "culture war" with this tactic, but there's no other way. It's a fundamental truth about humans that we feel before we think, and if we've been conditioned to feel that "cartoons = kid stuff" then all the intellectual arguments in the world won't matter. This troper realizes that he is essentially encouraging some brave troop out there to animate "Friends", but drastic times call for drastic measures. I mean, look how long it has taken for the church to lose its legal freedom to fine, punish, jail and execute people for not being members of the church. How much longer will it take to undo the damage that Disney did to this art form?
Caswin: I don't know where you were going with the church thing, but Disney's animated productions aren't exactly "all kiddie-grade, all the time", either.
Emil Lang 1000: This troper thinks it should be mentioned in the description that, very likely, we are seeing the beginning of an Age of Animation in the US, though not necessarily due directly to animation as a whole; rather, it is the attention and recognition which graphic novels are getting as actual pieces of literature that is fueling the cultural drive to accept cartoons & comics as serious styles of art, rather than simply kids' entertainment. Graphic novels are becoming more and more prevalent in the mainstream as an entirely viable and acceptable form of serious storytelling, as evidenced by the fact that such graphic novels as Persepolis, Maus, Watchmen, Bone, and Road to Perdition are not only accepted reading in high schools and many high-ranking universities, but as required reading across the nation. It should be noted that comics and animation are following a typical cycle of any entertainment-based art-form: that of "novelty, establishment, experimentation, anti-establishment, reestablishment, re-experimentation, reevaluation, acceptance". This means, that: first, an artform is treated as a novelty; next, it becomes an established, accepted form of entertainment, but with specific rules as perceived by the public; experimentation then is begun by the artists, but the populace at large does not accept the efforts and will probably openly mock the attempt; this causes a backlash, and the artists revolt, creating shocking pieces which go entirely against the establishment, in order to force recognition of existence, if not acceptance of worth - anti-establishment; the shocking value then forces a backlash from the public, and a re-establishment then occurs; re-experimentation, however, begins, trying slightly different, yet familiar, methods than the previous generation of experimentation; the public takes a second look at the art, and begins to consider its merits; finally, the "entertainment" is accepted as "art," and while it still may exist primarily as a means of entertainment, it has garnered more respect and is given serious study across the board. However, that the cycle of re-experimentation and reevaluation may continue for a very, very long time, if the results yielded by the artists at the time do not garner enough respect of the public, usually because the artists react to the initial ill-response of the public by falling into a re-anti-establishment which only helps to further dissuade the public. This was the case with Theater & Film - though theater took literally hundreds of years to go through this process in any culture in which it existed, while film took only a few decades by comparison. We are seeing this cycle come to a close with comics, as graphic novels have inspired the public to view them in a more serious tone. Animation, by association (in fact, the first true animator was a cartoonist), is being given more serious scrutiny by the public. If the efforts of the artists continue to yield tasteful, thought-provoking examples - as is the case with Brian Kunietzko & Michael Dante Dimartino, Genndy Tartakovski, and Pixar, with help from Hayao Miyazaki and Satoshi Kon's films being imported to the US from a country where animation is already considered a potential high-art-form - then the cycle will end with only one round of re-experimentation & reevaluation; however, if the majority of animators (whom can easily be a childish & immature lot - this troper is an animator and will be the first to admit this), create relatively tasteless or "clever" pieces (clever is never a good thing in art), i.e. things most often seen on Adult Swim, then it will fall back into re-establishment. However, thankfully most of the younger public is willing to accept animation as an all-around art-form, and even older members of the populace are being persuaded away from their previous prejudices against animation as a whole (this troper's mother never understood his fascination with comic books & graphic novels, and then he gave her Persepolis to read - she has not questioned his interest since; she already began to see the beauty of animation, after watching several Miyazaki movies with this troper).
Etherjammer: The line "While none of those movies can be exactly termed adult animation yet since they have a lot of kid-friendly moments..." in the Dreamworks example near the bottom bothers me for some reason; I suspect it's because of the CS Lewis quote at the top of the page. Is there a way to phrase this that doesn't sound like "adult animation can't be kid-friendly"?
Mononoke is "Bloodless Carnage?" I specifically remember hand waving my parents into letting me rent it and watching it in secret when it first came out... Same with Ranma around the same time... People had their ARMS cut off, with blood pooling out and the bone showing...
Removed:
- This troper - an illustrator and aspiring animator who hates, hates, hates that this Trope exists - sat down to enjoy Disney's Enchanted with her mother. Within thirty seconds of the animated first act, mom asks this:
- MOM: "Can't we fast forward?"
- Similarly, when This troper sat down to watch "A Scanner Darkly" with my mom and a friend, they quickly lost interest upon realizing that the entire movie was animated.
- With this troper, his mother refuses to watch any animated show on the pretense that it's not for her, this however makes no sense as when I was younger she watched Digimon Tamers and started like "I don't wanna watch this" and went to "It that poor girl going to be ok. What happened to her?" During commercials I had to give her a recap of the series to stop her questions. Years later she would deny this and pretend she was humoring me, because interrupting my show every 5 seconds when I'm trying to pay attention to it so she can get a recap is you know humoring me. I think it's summed up nicely in the C.S Lewis quote at the top. It's to bad cause I have way better anime now that I think she would like, but she won't give them a chance (infact sometime it seem like she thinks I'm childish for liking them).
- This troper had a similar experience with his parents denouncing Death Note. It wouldn't be so bad if they hadn't been watching Dexter at around that time.
- My mother also wont watch anything animated, unless she is watching with my nieces... And flips out every time she sees the Simpsons on TV, calling it 'disgusting' because she firmly believes that if it's animated, it's for kids, so the more mature aspects are CLEARLY inappropriate in her eyes (it doesn't help that she has trouble understanding parody). I've tried explaining that it's not aimed at young children, but she wont have it... If she ever saw South Park, Family Guy, or a lot of anime, her head might explode from shock.
- This troper's mother, depressingly, is the same way. One day she started telling me about how scandalized she was by this cartoon show she saw that was absolutely filthy, full of all kinds of things they just shouldn't have in cartoons. And what show was it, you may ask? Family Guy? South Park? Drawn Together? Nope. Try King Of The Hill.
Save it for your personal blogs, guys.
Why does the main page say that animation is more common in Japan because fewer people want to become live-action actors? This is entirely bulk. Japan has a very large live action movie and tv industry and more live action entertainment exists than animated entertainment.
For the love of Primus, COULD SOMEONE PLEASE FIND A NEW PICTURE WITH OUT A KID WITH AN EXTREMELY CREEPY SMILE!?
Kalle: I think that that smile is more like he convinced his mom that it was completely innocuous, and he's all smug because his cunning plan worked. Perv.
Ack Sed: Documentary proof beats any quote. :-) WIN.
As the person who originally put forth the suggestion for a new picture, I must say, YOU WIN MADAME.
Loser Gamer Britt: Is... Is that picture for real?! I'm really hoping it's a shoop. (Not that it isn't hilarious, it's just that... you know.)
Zeke Sulastin: I'm going to look for a new pic. However humorous a child getting La Blue Girl is, it makes it really hard to link to the trope to prove a point.
Alligator: You do that. That kid traumatizes me more than an anime would him.
Some comments on the article:
"but these shows were all comedies, since animation was still not regarded as a suitable medium for purely dramatic content."
I've seen a lot of independent animation, made by people who are making what they want to make, free from commercial considerations, and even then very little of it could be called "purely dramatic". Films like Emily Hubley's Emergence of Eunice or Karen Watson's Daddy's Little Bit of Dresden China are definitely not comedies, but calling them "purely dramatic" is misleading - they're more complex than that. To say that animation is not a particularly suitable medium for purely dramatic content is far from indefensible.
"If it's animated, it's a Guilty Pleasure (Well, unless it's Batman The Animated Series, due to the fact it not only was serious, but actually was in line with the mythos)."
This statement is just bizarre. Batman is less of a guilty pleasure than the films of, say, Alison de Vere, the Hubleys or Jan Svankmajer? I don't think that's true.
macroscopic: Removed from the main article,
& partly because of various factors that lead to even "childish" things like action figures being bought by older collectors (one popular theory is that Japan's humiliating defeat in World War Two plunged the country into a state of perpetual infantilism, but this is obviously controversial).
Seems irrelevant and obviously racist.
Actually that whole paragraph is a mess, I think — the one beginning with, "Perhaps the biggest obstacle to Western animation" The main article needs a once-over, you guys, I don't know how much information to trust on it.
Anonymous Mc Cartneyfan: Rewrote the description. Hope it's accurate. And it's important to know it's not just the executives meddling here.
Just curious, can anyone paste that former Teen Titans-related quote from before? And why was it removed?
Cliche: I have modified the description as it has a proven false undertone that Japan respects its animation far more than the West. Vampire Buddha
's post among others shows that the Animation Age Ghetto is very much alive in Japan as well. Also, this may be an English language wiki, but I think the page would benefit a lot from having a greater world perspective rather than focussing primarily on the USA with anime Fan Dumb attempting to "prove" the superiority of Japanese animation and claim how those "evil" Westerners attempt to butcher them into the age ghetto. (12/13/09)
—-
Caswin: Removing this from the entry on Princess Mononoke...
- You are actually supporting the Viewers Are Morons when it comes to animation stereotype with that. What you should do is praise him for being an intelegent, forward thinking, non-brainwashed by fundies, badass (because he said it for everyone to see).
Random Person: Okay, I have to contest the quote from Daniel Kline at the top of the page. At no point in his article does he ever say "animated movies are only for kids." What he says is "kid's movies are only for kids." And to a certain extent I agree with part of his article; Up was good but it doesn't deserve all the heaps of praise it's getting (at least in my opinion). Still, even if you completely disagree with his article (and even if I do agree somewhat with certain portions, I do agree that the article overall is rather silly), it really doesn't relate to this trope. The fact Up is a cartoon is coincidental; his claim is that because it's a kid's film, it shouldn't be getting praise from adults. He is not saying "Up is a cartoon, so it shouldn't get praise from adults." To conclude: His overall argument may be just plain stupid, but it really has no relation to this trope. It's more a criticism of Multiple Demographic Appeal or Periphery Demographic.
Caswin: So, wait... what's with deleting every entry (and there were a lot of them) involving the phrase "This Troper" as "Troper Tales", then leaving them out of Troper Tales?
