This is discussion archived from a time before the current discussion method was installed.
Mr Death: Hey, Lollipop: New entries go at the bottom. That's where the whole big discussion about your trolling is taking place, how about you check it out, hm? And Jefapato hasn't been part of it, thus far.
Jefepato: I'm reluctant to delete the line out of hand, but can someone give an example of borrowing from the World of Darkness? I don't see it. I would have to say that Jim Butcher, who is a big fan of D&D probably gets a lot of his action from that. I can certainly see the characters. After all, Michael is a classic Paladin, and he even has some of the abilities like minor healing, and smite evil.
Hollow49: Neither do I, and I'm a big fan of the books. Perhaps the entry-writer was mislead by the shared genre (urban fantasy) with a wide range of beings? Or is it the idea of different types of werewolf and vampire that gives that impression? (I'll point out that the different Dresden Files vampires are entirely different species - they're both vampires in the same way that dogs and cats are both pets - and draw from different traditions. Ditto for the several other lupine shapechangers that might be confused with werewolves.)
Indigo: I know someone personally who used to RP with Jim Butcher, but she never mentioned. Though readers have also said they've seen him take jabs at the Anita Blake books, so it's possible it's meant as a Shout-Out. Before the last reboot, I followed the World Of Darkness closely, and I don't see any similarities I don't see in any other Urban Fantasy fiction.
Looney Toons: I think the point is that the structure of the setting — supernaturals out the wazoo, unnoticed by the normals — is possibly a deliberate nod to or parody of the WOD.
Hollow49: I'm pulling this one:
- Powers That Be: The "High Council"
Sikon: Is this the one that has a Stargate-esque kawoosh effect emerge from a circle on the floor?
Sciatrix: I'm doubtful about Mouse being an example of a Mega Neko, since he is not, in fact, a cat. Am I the only one?
Looney Toons: Seconded.
Indigo: Thirded. He's a Big, friendly, Evil-Detecting Dog, so I'm removing the Mouse mention from Mega Neko.
Looney Toons: Removed this from the Shout-Out sublist
- The Archangel Uriel apparently read "The Two Towers" and quotes from it like from the bible.
because I finally reached that point in Small Favor, and Uriel doesn't quote from it at all. He leaves a copy of the book with suspiciously appropriate annotations (two, to be precise) with Harry.
Anonymous: I'd like to dispute the inclusion of Our Ghosts Are Different, Our Vampires Are Different, and Our Werewolves Are Different. The explanation of ghosts is simply the most common real world one — and thus explicitly not different. The various types of werewolves are simply a canvassing of all pre-20th century B-movie werewolf legends, and the Black Court vampires are simply Dracula-style to a T. If we're going to include these categories, some of these need to be tagged as aversions.
- The Our Vampires Are Different says some are played straight and subversions - the whole point of them being Dracula-derived was so Stoker was Right, which is a rare twist on the genre. Ditto Our Werewolves Are Different. There aren't all werewolf legends covered, and the eroticannibalistic aspect was certainly ... different.
JJ Ramsey: I'm not so sure about Dresden and Murphy being The Straight Will And Grace. In chapter 22 of Proven Guilty, they both seriously thought about getting together, and it was issues like Murphy letting "relationships come close to her job," and the possibility of a Mayfly–December Romance since Dresden could live a heck of a lot longer than she would, that put a damper on the possibility. The answer to "Will They or Won't They?" is probably "They won't," but Jim Butcher has left enough room that at least a temporary Relationship Upgrade between the two wouldn't be out of character for them. (Offhand, I'd figure that such an "upgrade" would probably be followed by a Better as Friends, though.)
Looney Toons: TransH, I'm not sure where you get your interpretation of Dresden's housekeepers, but he says at least once a book since they started that they can't tell anyone about them. Why delete that?
Rabid Choco: Arguably, Dresden's Pyrefuego isn't a Let's Get Dangerous!. Just a big honkin' fire spell. Also arguably, when the baddies realize he's survived the worst they've thrown at him... That one is.
Lollipopfop: I have noticed that a lot of entries have been erased. Mostly ones someone might have seen as not sufficiently favorable to the works. I reproduced them as best I could. This is not a fan page. People are going to say what they think of the works, good and bad. I reentered the post about Harry being a God-Mode Sue. I also reentered the post about a lot of the background being from World of Darkness. And I entered a remark in the Crowning moment of funny. Erasing entries simply because you don't agree with them is vandalism. Just like if I decided that let say the thing eith the dinosaur wasn't awesoma and erased it, that would be me forcing my opinion. So lets not do that to each other. Don't use this as your own piece. Everything is seemingly unfounded to someone. Its all just opinions.
Lollipopfop: Butcher himself remarks onhow unoriginal much of his world is. he usually talks about a movie called "Cast a Deadly spell" that he borrowed Harry from. But in any cae, you can not simply erase a point. People don't have to site examples here. We would all like to think that our favorite stuff is great and has only positive tropes. But thats not allowed. You have no right to erase their opinion.
Mr Death: New lines are supposed to go at the bottom, first off, and it's generally good form to put your handle on so we know who's talking.
I've had similar discussions on the Order Of The Stick Crowning Moment Of Awesome page, and I'm willing to go through it here: Yes, we bloody well can erase your points if they're unfounded and you're treating the page as your own opinion piece. "Well, I didn't think it's funny," isn't, generally, considered a valid point.
To belabor that point, Harry's costume and behavior wasn't the reason for what happened to Susan. The reason for that is because Bianca was an evil vampire who was pissed at Harry because something he did angered Bianca, and "made" her kill one of her own employees. Bianca invited him to the party with the full intent of murdering him, remember, and Susan arguably shouldn't have gone in the first place.
As to God-Mode Sue, read that trope's description: It's about someone who always wins, never needs anyone's help, never gets hurt, and everything they do works out for the better. None of that applies to Dresden. He calls in back-up just about every book when he finds out how deep he is, gets beaten to a bloody pulp 9 times out of 10, and his actions have several times had bad consequences that he's had to deal with. You can't call him a God-Mode Sue in one breath and then call him out for the bad results of his actions—especially when he acknowledges that the consequences are bad.
Lollipopfop: The article on Sues in general clearly says that there is no hard and fast definition. Harry does always win, even in ridiculous odds, and he has impossible relations with women, as women who are very powerful and can have anyone are attracted to him a impossible amount of times. Harry is impossibly attractive to women. It makes no sense that he is more attractive to women then Thomas. I think that qualifies him as a Sue. You have no right to remove that opinion. I didn't write it, but I agree with it. Nothing fits any trope in every way. these are all opinions. If you want to pick appart evey entry and if it doesn't fit the trope even in a monir way we need to erase it, then we have to do that with everything. Is that what you think we should do? Do not erase my entry. if you want put it to a question and see what other pople think. I have had just abourt enough of any non favorable entry being erased. That ends here.
Mr Death: It's hilarious how you think you have some sort of authority here. And "no hard and fast definition" doesn't mean "doesn't have to fit any of the criteria."
A God-Mode Sue wouldn't lose any battles, even minor ones. A God-Mode Sue wouldn't barely scrape by with his life at the end of every book. A God-Mode Sue wouldn't have needed Gentleman Johnny Marcone to bail him out in White Night. A God-Mode Sue wouldn't have gotten his girlfriend in that kind of trouble or started a war. A God-Mode Sue's actions always work out for the best, and a God-Mode Sue is the Deus ex Machina of the story, not someone who continually screws up and needs to be bailed out of the situation.
And all the women after him? The vast majority only trying to seduce him because they want to enslave him. It's got nothing to do with any inherent desirability of his, and the reason Thomas isn't swimming in women? Because he deliberately keeps himself out of a position where it could happen, and when it's a possibility, he holds back to make sure it doesn't happen.
"Opinion" doesn't mean "I'm right so NYAH!" Harry doesn't remotely fit the definition of a God-Mode Sue.
"I didn't write it, but I agree with it." <— Yes, you bloody well did, Lollipopfop. We can all see the edit history, so please don't try and pull this Sock Puppet crap.
Majin Gojira: I have no idea where Lolipopfop is getting her information or how she reached her skewed conclusions, but judging by her behavior here, re-asserting her points before settling it in discussion stinks of Troll-ish behavior.
Win it on this side first then put it in the article otherwise, we'll be here all day going back and fourth deleeting your entries. More and more people will pile on to prevent you from assertng your position and, in general, the horrible democracy of the Internet will assert itself.
End it now before it gets worse.
Unknown Troper: I'm agreeing with the others here. This is, at best, Complaining About Shows You Dont Like and additions of copious amounts of Natter. Please stop this Edit War before it gets out of hand.
In addition, God-Mode Sue is a Subjective Trope. Entering subjective tropes on the main article page is frowned on. And Natter can, and WILL be removed.
Majin Gojira: And, suprise-surprise, she isn't listening and is continuing the re-insertion of her siubjective edits and removint known, valid information. I though I smelled a troll.
Unknown Troper: Bah. If this was That Other Wiki this bullshit never would have happened. 3RR, instant admin intervention, and instant reverts for the win. But hey, if we have to slog through and excise the trolling text line by text line, that's fine.
Majin Gojira: Been tryin, but she's constantly making small edits, making it hard to get in ATM.
Unknown Troper: That's fine. I'm at a computer at work, and my shift doesn't change for six more hours. I can afford to wait and watch the article. :P
Mr Death: I just put everything back the way it was, and hopefully put an editing note in that will get her attention. Also put it on Ask The Tropers, so hopefully an admin will come up with a block for her.
Lollipopfop:Do not delete it. It deserves its place. Hoever I see you did not delete the entry saying that Justine is a clone of River from Firefly/Serenity. Its in th shoutout section. Umm..thats obvious. Lets see. Justines can't defend herself at all against anything. River can beat down a dozed reavers. Justines is sweet and competent when on drugs. Sort of. River is a supergenius that can tell the future. I see the similarity and how careful you all are about getting rid of incorrect statements. So this is OK...But you just don't understand why Harry is a God-Mode Sue or why people see similarities to the World of Darkness. People have never had to prove their statements before. Why does this need to be proven when it seems to be kind of obvious? Listen. Please lets start using more even evaluation when editing this. if we need to take out everything that isn't proven a lot will be taken out. BTW..I noted one of the editors did a review of Storm Front. I didn't realiz Butcher on purpose tried to make a cliched book, but I guess it makes sense.
Mr Death: First off, as we mentioned before, new posts go at the bottom and put your handle on them. I reverted all your stuff because you're trolling at this point by just perpetuating the edit war, with your only justification being "IT'S MY OPINION SO YOU CAN'T ARGUE!!!" With any luck, you'll be blocked from editing the page any further.
It's all Natter and your personal opinion, which seems to boil down entirely to Complaining About Shows You Dont Like, which does not belong on the page. Also, the stuff in the review is hyperbole and speculation; Butcher didn't deliberately make the most cliche book he could, that's just stupid.
So, please, cut the shit out. You're just ignoring all the arguments, well founded and, you know, actually backed up by things in the book, and putting in your own bitching, so please, just stop.
Unknown Troper: As the editor who added the River comment, if you'd bother paying attention in Grave Peril, you'd notice that Justine essentially said she suffers from the same madness that River suffers from, and without Thomas around, she collapses into River-style mumbo-jumbo. That fits exactly with her character for the majority of the series. And yes, Justine is helpless and cannot defend herself against threats, just like River for the vast majority of Firefly. Yes, she defeated dozens of Reavers on her lonesome. But prior to that, a gang of angry townsfolk, a lone federal agent, and a half-dozen cops were opponents that she was utterly helpless against. Y'know, just like Justine.
Lollipopfop: Why are you erasing my entries? In fact why are you erasing a lot of peoples entries, Jefepato? Isn't this supposed to be for everyone? Do you feel you own this ? If you want to start a fan site for the Dresden Files, thats great. But this is not the place. The WOD entry is fine. No one has to prove their points here. I also hope you will leav my point about Harry being a God-Mode Sue alone. It makes sense. he does win a disproportionate amount of times, and he gets more women attracted to him then his brother a white court vampire. Its my opinion. Just like your opinions are left alone, I hope you will do me the courtesy. I hope you will stop vamdalizing the posts you don't like.
Mr Death: First off, "People have never had to prove their statements before." is just wrong. That's what Discussion pages are for. Secondly, join the conversation, and read up on the numerous reasons we've given for why your points don't belong on the page. And for the last time, "Opinion" isn't a free pass to write whatever BS you think is right. There are standards here, even if you seem like you don't even notice them.
Peteman: @ Lollipopfop: Yes, if a trope is not clear, then they do need to explain why (it is assumed that most people who read the trope already know because they are familiar with the work, but for those who aren't, they often ask Please Elaborate for helpful people). I can't see how HD resembles World of Darkness, because Vampires, Werewolves, Mages, Ghosts, and other things don't resemble any of the literature I've read. Also, Dresden wins often by the skin of his teeth and with a lot of help from his allies (or at least mutual enemies), not through overwhelming personal power that nullifies conflict (Harry screws up big time and pretty often, and has required more than one Deus ex Machina to save his ass). And he does not get more women attracted to him than his brother. His brother gets lots of nameless NPCs fawning over him (that is how his hair salon business worked and why he couldn't hold down a job for the time he was living with Harry), while most of the people seemingly fawning over Harry are people trying seduce him for their own purposes.
Unknown Troper: Right. Of all of the women supposedly falling all over Harry, one is trying to enslave him (Lash) another one is trying to get the upper hand over him via using his libido (Maeve) another is a psychopath simply willing to use sex as a means to an end (Tessa) and another is trying to eat him. (Lara Raith, as well as any of the Raiths). Of the human women, one bluntly turns him down even though she does care about him (Murphy) and another is being mind-controlled (Luccio). The only woman who seems to care about Harry because she really does love him is Susan. And the idea that Harry is somehow more attractive than Thomas, when Thomas is having a hard time holdng down a job simply because every woman in proximity wants to have sex with him, is completely laughable. Once Harry starts pulling random women joggers into his bed by accident, then we'll talk, but until then any claims that Harry is somehow more attractive than Thomas are either ignorant or deliberately misleading.
Paradisca Corbasi: SPOILER ALERT Butcher tweeted the first line of the next book the other day: I picked up the phone and Susan Rodriguez said, "they've got our daughter."
D. Random Troper : As to the "What measure is a non-human" trope; where would the characters of Mister, Mouse, and Tera West (the wolfwir from "Fool Moon") fit in? I think they deserve a mention but I'm not sure if they'd count as a subversion of the trope as it's written on the page or what. Input please?
Roland: I would say that Mister does not count, as he is a relatively ordinary animal. Mouse may be considered special, but he's pretty much the only one, and he's really just more an Extra-Specially Awesome Dog, although of supernatural origin. As for Terra, while she is an ally of Harry's during Fool Moon, Harry never seems to trust her very much and she is explicitly described as soulless and alien in behavior.
Generally speaking, in the Dresden Files, nonhumans are alien creatures who simply cannot be trusted and who rarely seem to show much interest in the welfare of humans. Even the few mentions of angels do not generally paint them as especially benevolent- they protect Michael's family, but don't really seem to get involved in actively fighting evil very much. As Harry suggests, it may simply be professional courtesy to a valued associate.
Of course, Harry is biased, as he isn't a believer, rarely encounters nonhumans on good terms, and the majority of the creatures he has encountered come from the nasty end of the spectrum. He mentions interactions with benign but alien nonhuman creatures as something he has to teach novice practitioners about. It's just, like magic in general, that Harry's life tends to emphasize the negative.
Tricksterson: There are other exceptions as well. What about Toot Toot and his people, not to mention the Alphas.
- Nitpick: The Alphas are humans. Werewolf-werewolves (i.e. not one of the other three kinds) are basically described as one-trick wizards.
Paradisca Corbasi: ANNOUNCEMENT Last night (1/3/10 as of this writing) Jim Butcher announced that he has completed the 12th Dresden Files book! The one that starts with the spoiler I mentioned above.
Paradisca Corbasi: ANNOUNEMENT Last night 3/1/10 as of this writing Jim Butcher posted chapter 1 of Changes to his website, www.jim-butcher.net
