Archived Discussion

This is discussion archived from a time before the current discussion method was installed.

Ouroboros: About the Expy entries, they aren't expies, an expy is a deliberate porting of other characters into the story, neither Kimblee or Hoenheim are such characters. It isn't about characters that look a bit like other characters, or even act a bit like them. They have to be more or less exactly the same with only minor tweaks. So I'm getting rid of expy examples, unless anyone can confirm from the Author herself that they have deliberate parallels to the characters listed.
Ouroboros: Someone mind explaining to me how Hawkeye and Mustang are a Takahashi Couple? Am I just reading it wrong or something, because I do not get that vibe from them. They don't bicker, they don't fight, they are always professional around one another. Where in that do we get anything like the relationship between Winry and Ed?
  • I just decided to cut it, after a bit of deliberation it became quite clear they aren't in any shape or form a Takahashi Couple. Their dynamic is, if anything, an inverse of the Takahashi Couple, nearly always respectful, professional and conscientious.

Ouroboros: I feel this needs a character sheet, anyone else agree?
  • Fuzzy Alien: I do. Unfortunately I'm a complete newbie and don't know how to start one, but I'd be glad to help.
    • Ouroboros Damn it all, neither do I!
      • Drakyndra I fourth(?) the request for the character sheet. And also am a n00b so cannot start one. Alas.
  • Fuzzy Alien: Edit Edit: Ah, someone made one with a correct title. 'Tis good.

Charred Knight: Shouldn't someone change the title of this page. The correct spelling is Fullmetal Alchemist. Their is no space between the Full and metal.

Seth: The way the wiki works capitalisation is irrelevant. Fullmetal Alchemist Ful L Metal Alchemis T ect ect. Just make sure you use Fullmetal Alchemist from now on.

Klicrai: That may be the way wiki works, but capitalization is NOT irrelevant. Capitalizing the second half of a compound word makes it into two words, and renders the entry meaningless. Dog House is not the same as a Doghouse. Fullmetal is the word in the title, not "Full Metal" and when you search for "Fullmetal Alchemist" the proper spelling doesn't come up.

Pavlov: Pulled the Young Wizards reference because although they're wizards who are young, they haven't got a thing to do with Diane Duane's series.

Mark Lungo: The alchemy array logo is an appropriate illustration, but I personally would prefer a picture of the Elric brothers. While there a lot of great pics of Ed and Al out there, I'm partial to this one.

Dark Insanity 13: What? Olivia does so sparkle like the rest of her family! See here! Fixing the mistake.

Bradster: Full Metal Alchemist is cool but it has alot of blood in it so they could dim down the blood.

Charred Knight: Just to point something out, I just got Fullmetal Alchemist Volume 15, and Roy does call his teacher "Hawkeye", I don't know where you got the idea that its ever stated that Riza's real name was Grumman, its never even stated that Riza is his granddaughter in either the manga or anime, you have to get the second info book for that information.

Ouroboros: Yes, I checked too, just in case, which is why I deleted the lines.

Ouroboros: There's a rumour going around that Mustang was adopted. I'd just like to get confirmation of this, and the source of the information, as I'm not sure if anything of the sort has been stated in canon. Was it in one of the character profiles or something?
  • Narvi: Chapter 87 states that Madam Christmas is Mustang's foster mother.

Klicrai: There is no such thing as "Full Metal Alchemist". The series is called "Fullmetal Alchemist".

Mike: It seems to me that Mustang is something of a chessmaster, at least at first. Its been ages since I watched the whole thing, and I'm just restarting it, so maybe that's wrong eventually, but...anyone want to toss in an opinion?

Devinette: edited Roy's listing as a Mukokuseki, for being full of factual errors. Roy is not from Central Europe, neither in manga or anime continuity. The fact that The Movie stablished that anime cointinuity Amestris is a parallel to Earth's Europe is a moot point, Amestris is Amestris. Implying there are only caucasian people in anime-Amestris is also untrue, the library clerk is clearly black, and there's also Ishvalans and Liorans. Also, it's not spelled Amestres.

Action Zero: Given how there's now an anime that's going to be following the manga much closer than the first one did, stuff with "in the anime" or "in the manga" has the potential to get quite confusing. I'm thinking we should look at splitting the article up so that we have one for the manga and new series, and another for the first series. Any thoughts?

Taelor: Seems like a prudent idea to me.

Devinette: it would probably be a lot less messy.

Mr Chaim: Agreed - Possibly however, we may just want to split this into the First anime adaption and then the Manga/Second Anime adaption - I'm not sure, we dont know how different the second anime will end up being, but i think it's worht keeping in mind.

Jordan: Two things, one I was wondering about whether Shou Tucker should really be called a Complete Monster in either this series or the first anime. I don't dispute that the guy crossed the Moral Event Horizon, but he does seem to genuinely love his daughter and isn't evil for the sake of evil. I feel the same way about Bradley- very very evil, but just sympathetic enough not to be a Complete Monster.

  • Also, I've thought of plotting character alignments and would appreciate suggestions. How does this look so far

  • Chaotic Evil
    • Envy and Kimblee
  • Neutral Evil
    • Yoki, Barry the Chopper
  • Lawful Evil
    • Father and most of the homunculi, the leaders of the State Military
  • Chaotic Neutral
    • Arguably Greed- I'd say he's somewhere between this and Neutral Evil, and I'm not sure if Olivia is this, Lawful Neutral, or something else.
  • Lawful Neutral
    • Mustang and most other Ishbal veterans start out this way, I'd say most of the Xingese characters, since they follow Ling regardless of whether he is pursuing good goals or not
  • True Neutral
    • Hohenheim to a degree
  • Chaotic Good
    • Ed
  • Neutral Good
    • Al, Winry, Izumi and her husband, Alex Armstrong
  • Lawful Good
    • Mustang and his subordinates eventually become this, Ling to a degree

Count Bruno: Could someone please explain how "The Truth" is a "The Blank"? There isn't even a character named "The Truth".

Jordan: If I remember correctly, that faceless creature Ed met in the Gate identified itself as The Truth

Count Bruno: Ah, yes, but I think that is only one of many names—the World, God, The Truth, "You", usw.

Drakyndra: This page has needed a better image for ages, and since the Brotherhood official site just got revamped with a shiny new poster (featuring animated versions of the formerly manga-only characters), I thought it might be a fitting replacement. It's probably a bit big as is, but do people think it'd work after a resize? (How big do people prefer the page pictures to be, anyway?)

Chuckles: Suggesting this should be cut;
  • For example, in the anime, Rose makes the (fairly excellent) point that even if the Elric Brothers had failed to resurrect their mother, Father Cornello still could. Cornello makes this same point in the original anime.

On the grounds that it's not an excellent point in the slightest. Cornello's wielding a crappy knock-off Philosopher's Stone that turned him into a weird Tetsuo-type bio-mechanical...thing, and would never be able to bring a dead person back to life. Cornello makes this point in the original anime because he's a lying bastard (and possibly unaware it's a fake he's got)

Kokoro: Includes spoilers for chapter 95, in regards to Hawkeye. Just something that's been bugging me.

I've seen a few entries for various tropes that suggest Hawkeye was going to kill herself if she had to kill Roy because she couldn't live without him. Romantic, huh? But also pretty wrong, I think. Killing herself for a man is awfully extreme, as well as awfully out of character for Hawkeye. There's way more complexity to that scene. Of course, all of the following is based on matters of translation. As well, its my own interpretation of the scene as based on the literal translation Ive read.

Hawkeye said she would complete the battle for Amestris if she had to kill Roy, not instantly kill herself after killing him. If she did kill herself and destroy her body (along with the secrets of flame alchemy) afterwards, it would be because she wouldn't want to live a happy life after everything she's done and would not want anyone to fall to the madness of flame alchemy again, not because of "her great love" for Roy. Which isn't to say that there's no love for Roy involved there (either in the platonic or romantic sense depending on your preferences), but there's also masses of guilt and feelings of responsibility over letting Roy learn the secrets of flame alchemy and the things that she and he did in Ishbal and after.

Essentially, her purpose for living right now is to fix the damage that was done during Ishbal, to carry the sins and bloodshed so the next generation can live peacefully. Her other purpose is to keep a check on Roy, to act as a custodian of the flame alchemy her father entrusted her with. Now, without either of those purposes, she wouldnt see much reason to go on living.

Basically, this rant was meant to hopefully get people to interpret that scene a little differently, if they havent already. And also to help restore Hawkeyes character, which I feel is slighted by the implication that she would kill herself only for the love of a man and the inability to go on without him. Shes much too awesome for that! Mostly, I just don't want to see anymore "Riza says she can't live without Roy" entries.

Charred Knight: I don't know how you can interpert Riza can't live alone as anything more than Riza can't live without Roy. You act as if she is some robot where if she has no purpose she can no longer live. Riza is a flesh and blood human being who has made some mistakes and is trying to make up for them. She can't let Roy go down that path, so she will kill him, but after the battle she will kill herself due to her love of Roy.

Kokoro: To me, it's disrespectful to Hawkeye to even consider that she would kill herself ONLY because of her love for Roy. I certainly never treated Hawkeye as a robot or disregarded her human emotions. In fact, it's her human emotions, her feelings of guilt and responsibility for what she's done, that wouldn't allow her to live happily even after gaining peace for Amestris if she had been forced to kill Roy. She also point blank says that she will destroy her body after the battle, not because she can't live without Roy, but because she wants to completely destroy the notes on flame alchemy. More importantly, I wanted to get across that Hawkeye is her own person, everything she does is not all about Roy.

Exploding Frogs: One thing to note, though: this isn't a detailed essay on the themes and characterizations of Fullmetal Alchemist; it's a list of the tropes used, along with a brief description of the context. Hawkeye did say that she would kill herself after the war if Mustang wasn't alive, and while the situation was more complicated than that...well, the same can be said of pretty much every other example on the page, and if we let every example degenerate into a morass of discussions and clarifications, the page will be totally unreadable. The original statement is accurate, if something of a generalization, and the rest of the details can be (and already are, in several cases) filled in under other trope examples. The point of the entries (as I understand them) wasn't to characterize Riza Hawkeye as a swooning, dependent Juliet figure (god forbid), but simply to point out that one facet of Hawkeye's character—which is certainly not defined entirely by her love for Roy, let alone by that one incident. Some perspective, please: no one is going to base their perception of a character entirely on one or two sentences in an site that contains hundreds of references to that character and the series they come from—especially when the character in question has several Crowning Moments Of Awesome listed that have nothing to do with that particular aspect of their character. (No one of consequence, anyway.)

Larfleeze: Regarding the images on the manga/Brotherhood character page, would it be possible to change the ones from the original anime to manga or Botherhood images? It's kind of jarring.

katyhalo: I've changed Hawkeye's to a suitably badass one from Brotherhood, but the rest definitely ought to be switched too.

weisquared: I can't really tell the difference between the original anime and Brotherhood images, but if someone can identify which of the remaining images ought to be changed, I'd be happy to do so.

Jordan: I wanted to comment on an edit earlier today arguing that Father is more like God versus my assertion of him being like Satan. I think that both are true. I definitely agree with the suggestion of Greed as a sort of good Satan-figure rebelling. On the other hand, as noted by another poster, Father wants to replace the (already kind of evil) God of the universe tempts people and names his children after the Seven Deadly Sins, both good signs that he is kind of like the Devil. I don't think it's an accident that he has aspects of both God and Satan. To compare, Berserk has a similar good Anti Christ idea and God Is Evil dynamic, but it's villains are still strongly reminiscent of traditional portrayals of demons.

Charred Knight: I should point out that God in the Fullmetal Alchemist world is not evil. His punishing people for entering God's Domain through arrogance.

Falconfly: Err, not entirely. The Truth does seem to take a sadistic liking in removing the victim's body parts. Anyway, I do agree both Berserk and Fullmetal Alchemist do mix traits of God and Satan in their supernatural characters; I think one should take it as an alternative mythology than a direct analogy to abrahamic religions.

katyhalo: I really want to question Roy's blindness being called a Fate Worse than Death. Losing your eyesight sucks, but it's not the end of the world; to pretend otherwise seems somewhat ableist to me.

Pom Rania: ...oh, you meant able-ist. Sorry about that. But yeah, I agree. Calling it that is an insult to the character and to the trope. And to actual real people in reality. So, we remove that entry on Fate Worse than Death? ...wait, I just realized there's an ACTUAL Fate Worse than Death in the series (can't remember if it's actually on the page, so I'll put it here anyways) — those people from Xerxes, especially the poor suckers who ended up as part of Envy.

katyhalo: Yeah, I think that's a much more fitting example of the trope. Being disabled is NOT worse than being dead. Being a disembodied soul eternally trapped in the hideous body of an evil shapeshifting monster... I think that counts.

Nithael: Plus, Roy being blind just happened in the end of the last chapter. As far as we know, he might as well regain his sight in the very next chapter. We should wait at least a few chapters before deciding to add it.

Pom Rania: Some disabilities, for some people, might count as worse than dead to them; imagine a quadiplegic ex-athlete with no other useful skills, who defines their entire worth (or lack of it) by their physical abilities (or lack of them). But the subject under discussion.... For him, it just incredibly sucks. And even if he ends up never being able to see again, with his character, he'll deal.

Xantospoc: ... Okay! We have a Wallbanger entry about the fan theories. In the first place, shouldn't we elaborate and/or move it on an entry like this... "Fan Dumb: some of their theories are really wallbangy!". What do you think?

Blunderbuss: I just took out this example from Ship Tease:

  • Royai is pretty much canon now, considering ch. 101.

Fans are free to ship whatever they want, but there are examples all over this wiki of tropers pointing at every single new chapter that comes out and saying that it 'confirms' their pairing. Not only does this add a lot of clutter, but it means that a few people are really jumping the gun before it's actually confirmed - the majority of the examples so far can be easily taken either way. How about we wait until the series ends and we get a definate answer to the Ship Tease? (And heck, even if it confirmed, you should use that future chapter as an example, not any other previous chapter with Ship Tease).

katyhalo: Not really a nitpick, but since The Bechdel Test has been added to the main page, can anyone pinpoint where the manga actually passes (ie. two female characters talk to one another about something other than a male character)? I've been trying to remember but drawing a blank at the moment.