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This is discussion archived from a time before the current discussion method was installed.

  • Kazmahu: About the Nessiah entry - I've never seen him get this treatment. Does someone have a link or two to prove it?

  • Monsund:Almost all the stories in fanfiction.net have a woobified Nessiah. There are also stories that ship him with Milanor. Here is the link

  • Feral Phoenix: Go back and look through the archive again. This time, check carefully to see if the majority of the writing there tries to claim he isn't fully responsible for inciting massive wars, manipulating countless people, reviving the dead for his own convenience, and running around generally being a troll. I'm also there rather frequently, and have never seen anything on Fan Fiction.Net that ships Milanor and Nessiah. ...Actually, better yet, go to any gaming forum that has a Yggdra Union section and ask people what they think of Nessiah. That should clear things up really quickly; most people loathe him.

  • Monsund:Most of the stories feature Nessiah snogging Milanor(whose girlfriend he subjected to Fate Worse than Death) or Gulcasa. Others portray as friends with the protagonists inexplicably and show him as an innocent minded Woobie. Thats more Draco in Leather Pants then most characters on this page. It seems you only want the entry gone to justify your Perverse Sexual Lust for the character. So no its not being deleted.

  • Kazmahu: I'm on Feral's side - while Nessiah is often shown not as an antagonist and with attention paid to his Freudian Excuse, his flaws are never downplayed and the protagonists' reasons for putting up with him are also explored. Nothing I found shows anyone completely ignoring or writing out his flaws, which is what the trope is about; if you're going to keep replacing it, please link to some (several, preferable; this is a trope about a majority fandom) specific examples.

  • Monsund:Here's a yaoi fanfic with Nessiah in it and another that has Nessiah as a friend of Milanor. He has more crediantials and fanfics then most characters on this page, the entire section on fanfiction.net is filled with victim Nessiah yaoi fanfiction. Thats far more then the likes of Pokey, Pyramid Head, and M.Bison. I've yet to see you provide a hint of evidence and I've provided a ton.

  • Feral Phoenix: "Friends"? Haha, you're pretty funny there. Have you actually read any of this stuff, or just looked at the summaries? More to the point, characters being shipped has nothing whatsoever to do with Leather Pants status, and canon stands that Ito has always intended for Nessiah to be seen as sympathetic—the small part of the fanbase that actually likes him is blowing nothing out of proportion. It seems that you're just upset at seeing a character you personally dislike getting sympathy from other players. And you just ignored everything that Kazmahu said; we need a lot of samples that specifically deal with Nessiah's flaws being written out. (Aside from the first, the attached links are all translated from the game sourcebooks, which you are more than welcome to check for accuracy and/or translator bias if you own them.)
    • Kazmahu: Seconded, in regards to the stories - not one of them ever tries to deny that Nessiah's done some pretty horrific stuff. Several are even AU, which don't count for anything here.

  • Monsund:You haven't provided a lick of evidence of anyone disliking Nessiah, and while Nessiah was intended to have a sad backstory that makes you Cry for the Devil, a million other characters on this page are also like this. Second you're one to make accusations considering you're probably the biggest Nessiah fangirl around and you gush about the character constantly. Overall it seems you just called in Kazmahu from elsewhere for back up, and are only trying to justify your Perverse Sexual Lust for a fictional character. It is a fair entry, and it stays here no matter how much you whine.

  • Kazmahu: I think the pot's calling the kettle black. You haven't provided a lick of evidence of people downplaying Nessiah's flaws and irrationally idolizing him; you need evdeince for the trope before anything is needed to cancel it. Nessiah does have an intentionally sympathetic backstory, but it's only ever viewed as sympathetic and not a catch-all justification for his actions. The fandom around Nessiah displays none of the traits of the trope, or if you want to stretch it, you have a minority of one who does when the trope is about a large segment of the fandom that does this, which is certainly not the case. There is no such thing as notability, but it has to actually be an example; Nessiah isn't, and has no place on this page.

  • Monsund: I've provided tons of fanfics, and you yourself are only defending him because you seem to be Feral's Yesman as evidenced by your lack of edits, and tendency to show up when Feral Phoenix does. Feral Phoenix herself also described Nessiah starting as war as i"nnocent" on the character page. Nessiah has a place on the page, because several writers not just Feral have given him the treatment as seen on fanfiction.net. Plus even neutral and good characters have been put on the Draco in Leather Pants Pages. We shouldn't make an exception for one fan and her friend.

Kazmahu: Actually, I'm not the slightest bit convinced you've read the fanfics. They portray him as a positive character, but never outright ignore his flaws or overdo positive aspects, which is what the Draco in Leather Pants trope is about - not focusing on a character and positive interaction, but overdoing it and warping the character, which isn't something that happens in anything you've linked to. Also, I haven't made any edits because it's pointless when we're still debating here - I'd rather not lock up the page for others who might be trying to edit while we're sorting this out. Also, it's entirely possible for two people to simply share a viewpoint.

Monsund:No most of the fics portray Nessiah as a poor little Woobie rather then the manipulative antagonist he was in the game. They're over doing it and warping the character making it fit the page. Looking at your recent edits, you haven't edited in days except to support Feral Phoenix every one in a while and then you delete a hard to find entry on a large page for a game thats relatively obscure. Its blatantly obvious you two are connected. Until you provide evidence I'm simply going to ignore you.

Kazmahu: Stop diverting the issue - what edits I have or haven't made and who I may or may not be connected to are not the issue here. The issue here is your lack of evidence - say we consider Feral to be exaggerating canon materials. That's one. As I've said, this is about a majority segment of the fandom, which one person isn't. And the writers on FF.net aren't the majority, either. lacrimacastle.net is one of the biggest fanforums for Yggdra Union, go on there and ask what they think of Nessiah.

Monsund:And the Majority of Earthbound fans won't like Giygas or Pokey, most Kirby fans won't like zero, most Pokemon fans won't like Cyrus, most JakAndDaxter won't like Errol and so on. Nessiah has far more examples then basically every one on this page, the entry is staying.

Feral Phoenix: You're diverting again—and it's usually not a good idea to add new entries to a wiki based on what you see in the examples, as it's hard to tell whether or not they're accurate in a case like this unless you're really familiar with the fanbase. In any case, DILP status is (according to its description) usually characterized by the starry-eyed devotion you'd expect out of stereotypical preteen fans. Something overexaggerated like that, even if it's in a Vocal Minority rather than a large percentage of the fanbase. Can you find something like that for Nessiah? The entry would be a lot more valid if you could; I've never seen that anywhere. Kazmahu's suggestion is a good one too—starting a forum topic at LCN ought to give you a good idea of what people other than the three of us here think about it.

Monsund:Even a few delusional fans of a character is enough to warrant a mention on the Draco in Leather Pants pages. Plus on lacrima castle, several users said Nessiah has a tendency to attract fangirls adding more proof for his staying.

Feral Phoenix: Hon, the LCN thread you linked to mentions three "fans" of Nessiah's (and one fan of his voice actor), and liking a character doesn't necessarily equate to thinking the sun shines out of their every orifice. I like Nessiah because he's a complex character with ambiguous morality (and I like characters that artfully troll others), but that doesn't change the fact that his sanity is questionable at times, he ruthlessly manipulates anyone and everyone he doesn't personally care about, and that he pulls off one of the nastiest dog kicks I've ever seen in a game. DILP would be there being a group—even a small group would suffice—of people liking him to the degree of going "OMG NOTHING IS HIS FAULT HE'S THE ONLY VICTIM EVER AND HE'S NEVER MEAN TO ANYONE!" Can you link me to one or two places where people are acting like this? Because thus far, the rest of your evidence entails:
  • An alternate-universe story (invalid)
  • A story in which a recurring theme is Nessiah and the cast attempting to learn to live with each other (Milanor, Rosary, Luciana, and several other characters still hate him in that one after twenty-something chapters, and that doesn't seem like it's changing anytime soon)
  • Another alternate-universe story (invalid, as above)
  • A story focusing on everyday life in Bronquia, long before Nessiah puts his plans into action, which focuses on Gulcasa and Nessiah trying to deal with what they see as each other's nonsensical behavior
  • Another alternate-universe story (still not flying)

I don't doubt that Nessiah has at least one or two silly fans who ignore his flaws, but I need some proof they exist—just thinking that they're probably there isn't enough to put an example on the page. It's the same way that, say, I'd need to try to find more instances of people vilifying Yggdra to put her on the Ron the Death Eater page (I've seen two people do it, which is nowhere near enough to support that claim).

(...And while it has nothing to do with anything, I'm impressed with your ability to find a discussion on LCN that's this civil—that was really rare back in '05 or so, when I first discovered that place. It looks like the nastier people might have grown up a tiny bit, which is always nice to see.)

Monsund:Well since you're being so polite and fairly reasonable, I'll delete it.

Fast Eddie: Whew. Looked for a while there like you folks weren't going to find a way to be friendly about this. Maybe I could offer an observation as an absolute outsider. The discussion went too quickly from examination and discussion of evidence (good stuff) into commentary on the personal traits of the folks in the discussion (bad stuff). Then there was a little ganging-up with that same unfortunate tone, which is always going to lead to defensiveness. As soon as the discussion revealed the smallest amount of mutual respect, it went back on the rails.

As long as I'm pontificating ... You folks all share an interest. That's pretty cool. Doesn't have to happen. Having folks to talk with that are into what you are into isn't something to throw away lightly. Examining your different takes on things is a lot of fun, if you give it chance. </cumbaya>