Archived Discussion

This is discussion archived from a time before the current discussion method was installed.

Ununnilium: Took out:

The Crisis Crossover that killed Marvel Comics as a publisher of actual periodicals, as opposed to its current status as a licensor for big-budget special-effect-driven Super Hero properties.


as well as changing the way Marvel do business forever

because, c'mon. First of all, "forever" is a big statement, considering it just ended. Secondly, isn't this just a bit overdramatic?

Third, IMHO, we should move this to Civil War, because the Main version would really be better served as a During the War thing. Any opinions?

Seth: I meant to remove that top part myself but i forgot by the time i'd finished. Civil War or Marvel Civil War could work. Personally i think Marvel Civil War is a better idea. Weren't the sub indexes meant to be a stop cap solotion at first.

Ununnilium: Perhaps, but they work well. Disambiguation without mucking up the presentation.

Seth: It would be nice if links automatically went to Main unless there was something at that link in the sub index though.

Ununnilium: Okay, I'm-a move it over.
Seth: Wall Banger? Really? There is a lot of negativity for this series that I've seen from the hard core comic fans. For someone new to comics its still quite interesting.

Seven Seals: Basically, Civil War is a moderately interesting idea that's completely lacking in execution. The whole "superheroes meet registration" thing has been done before, and done better. Civil War just brings it to the mainstream Marvel universe, which as I said is an interesting premise, but it's handled in such a ham-fisted way that there are plenty of wall-banging moments for everyone with even a slight interest in the characters involved (there are some good bits too, but they're not the majority). We all know subtlety and comics aren't close friends, but Civil War is a good example of how to make comics that are uninteresting to the general audience and unsatisfying to the fans. I'm not a fan, and I thought it was blah, with some peaks into awful (two words: Thor clone). (link to Super Registration Act added by Morgan Wick)

Ununnilium: Plus, specifically Civil War: Frontline #11. Find the "Myspace" speech from it online, read it, and see if you don't agree.

Seven Seals: Oh, the "Captain America doesn't understand and cannot represent America because he's not in touch with pop culture" thing, right? I secretly think that's So Bad, It's Good. I mean, you just can't take that seriously. "Why do you have to be such an idealist, Captain America? Don't you know America is not about ideals anymore?" (I'm paraphrasing only very mildly here, that's close to what's literally said.) I'm pretty sure they'll later claim it was supposed to be taken as satire all along.

Seth: I'm buying the collected editions as they are released so i will look out for front lines 11 when it comes up.

Ununnilium: Heh, they probably will.
Ununnilium: Okee, moved over and switched all the links.
Chuckg: As the SHRA of Marvel's Civil War was notably more extreme than a simple 'metahumans must register their secret identities', I made some notes to that effect in the main body of the text. I'm aware that the core Civil War title never actually mentioned the 'metahuman draft' part... but given that it was referenced consistently over a period of months in New Avengers, Spectacular Spider-Man, Fantastic Four, and Avengers: The Initiative, by four different writers, I'm willing to call it in-continuity.
Jefepato: As to the Jumping Off the Slippery Slope bit: apparently Mark Millar claimed that, in the main Civil War book, the pro-reg side "gets the better rep all the way through." Do we have a trope for when the writer tries to give one impression, but readers get exactly the opposite, to an Anvilicious extent?

Seth: Writer on Board and i think touched on in a few other places like Narm

Jefepato: Writer on Board is definitely present and accounted for in this series, but isn't the problem I'm referring to at all. Nor is it really Narm, since the problem isn't a matter of a serious situation being found funny.

Seven Seals: Eh, source. Did Millar really claim that the side using killer clones and mind-controlled villains "got the better rep all the way through"? I don't think we really have a trope for "the writer is living in la-la land and invites you to join him". Reality Distortion Field, perhaps? *sarcasm*

Jefepato: A source you shall have. About a third of the way down the page, "MM: What's funny when you read the main book is that it's pretty much Tony's side that gets the better rep all the way through." This might be too specific and off-the-wall for a trope, but maybe there should be a trope for "the author's interpretation of his work is completely different from the one all the readers agree on?" That does happen sometimes — just look at Fahrenheit 451. (I guess it's kind of like Misaimed Fandom in reverse.)

Ununnilium: We had a long conversation about this in YKTTW, but nothing ever came of it.

smith2000: What would have happened if Marvel had gone to other extreme.Anti-regs win, overthrow government and it is Authority-time again. In Marvel universe government is always corrupt and public is always reindeers.Superhuman dictatorship would be a great idea.

Eryk The Red: Millar is probably messing with us about this. I don't have the references on hand to show it, but what he has said about the government regulation being the good and right thing seems inconsistent with the sorts of opinions he's expressed in the past. I could be off-base, but I don't really take what he says about Civil War too seriously. It's just PR.

Ununnilium: ...I very much doubt Captain America would have overthrown the US government.

Yeah, but he's been oddly consistent in sticking to this. And the end of Civil War seems to have been an attempt at a Twist Ending, with Cap realizing that he's been doing worse stuff than the pro-regs in the name of rebellion. (Except, of course, that he hadn't, which makes it a Broken Aesop.) Combine that with the horrible "NASCAR monologue" at the end of Civil War: Frontline, and it's obvious that someone thought the pro-regs were the good guys.

Eyclonus: Is there a trope to signify the complete lack of understanding of character paradigm on the part of the writer? Saying that its misaimed fandom is a bit much when the anti-registration group is a stacked deck with Wolverine, Spidey, the personification of populist anti-authoritarian Uberviolence-Cable, Daredevil and Luke Cage whose very presence turns anything into an allegory of civil rights. It can't be argued that Pro-Registration received a better rep when all of Marvel's best known properties are either against Registration or for it, but acting like their evil and nutty moustached wearing universe counterpart. I've looked at a few and none of them seem to convey the sheer stupidity of it all.

Ununnilium: Taking out Idiot Plot and So Bad, It's Horrible. The entry's negative enough without random add-ons.

gibberingtroper: I'll say its negative. Its completely unfair and doesn't highlight any of the things that worked about the series. First, when they cloned Thor, it wasn't with the intent of killing. That was shown as a clearly unexpected side effect. Second, if I recall correctly, the Thunderbolts were not Tony's idea (I'm gonna have to dig this series up and reread it.) Just two examples, after I reread this, I'll have more.

One thing that immediately touched this off as a quality piece was the angry myopic mother who appeared in the first issue. There is ALWAYS an angry myopic parent when something like this happens. Some kid electrocutes himself by poking a fork in an outlet and 10-to-1 you'll have an angry myopic parent calling for Congress to ban outlets, or forks, or both. Then they hook up with some Well-Intentioned Extremist or some lobbying firm.

I think this is a case of Misaimed Fandom but not of the kind this page indicates. The problem is, comics are escapist fiction, so the fans identify with the superhero's perspective and thus will balk at the idea of rules and restrictions (in part because the demographic is mostly teens and young adults.) The fans do not imagine themselves as ordinary people living in a world where powerful beings routinely get in fights causing death and property damage.
Seven Seals: Took out the bottom two lines from this:
  • all crimefighting and lifesaving activity by non-registered heroes was illegal
    • (...which sounds as if it's putting millions of policemen, firefighters, paramedics and lifeguards out of a job...)
      • (What's that? Marvel's writing on this was poorly thought-out as to its ultimate implications and was gapingly illogical throughout? Surely not!)
Come on, Civil War's bad enough without grasping for straws like this. Obviously those in an official capacity would be exempt from this. I'll replace "heroes" with "superheroes" just to make this clear.

Haven: Took this out from under Wall Banger because "too many but especially Sally Floyd" summed it up pretty well. The rest is, well, Discussion.

  • It was such a Wall Banger, someone managed to write up a much better counter-argument [1]
    • Your Mileage May Vary. You know you're in for a clever retort when the editor has Captain America dropping the F-Bomb repeatedly.
    • Due to the pure stupidity of what Cap has been put through, I think even he would be letting 4 letter words loose at this point.
    • This Troper thought that it fit Cap's character perfectly except for the vulgarness.
    • This troper think this fan-made counter-argument would be pure awesome distilated if who did it added a line close to "By the way, while you normal people hide in the subways to save your lives we superheroes are upstairs risking our lives to let you have at least a subway to hide at. Just FYI."
    • It would have also been nice if Cap had stressed that most superheroes are working out of pure altruism and don't see themselves as a personal army.
  • Marvel's decision to have hyper-patriotic (loyal to the country and the dream, not the government) Captain America lead the resistance against the registration act, have the act's supporters set supervillains on those who don't conform and hold those arrested in an internment camp without charges, and then telling us we were supposed to be rooting for the pro-reg side.
    • It should be remembered that by the end of it, Captain America realized that the people of New York did want registered heroes, and that they in fact were rebels without a real cause, so he ordered a stand down, ending the Civil War.
  • Here's one from the fans (namely scans daily) when Tigra (a cop) turned out to be a mole for the pro-reg side, fans flipped and called her a traitor, yes you read that right, people were pissed about a police officer enforcing the law and going undercover.
    • Need I point out that some people don't feel you should support immoral laws just because they are the law?
    • Yes because telling superheros they're going to be held accountable for the massive collateral damage they cause (even the Badass Normal Street level hero break a few dozen cars and windows) and need to be trained how to use said powers is wrong and we should just let them be above the law, right? The real Wall Banger was the writers who jumped on their soap box to make the pro-reg side look like Nazis.
    • You *do* realize that the villains are the ones who actually cause all the mayhem the heroes are forced to clean up, and are in fact responsible for all the trouble in the Marvel Universe? No one ever stopped to think about how much worse things would be if the villains actually got away with their crimes.
    • Old Man Logan. Also serves as an argument for an organized superhero force in the Marvel Universe.
    • Too bad they didn't half to do much work. Millar was the one who had them set up the secret prison where they wouldn't be tried, had supervillains hunt down super-heroes, not really caring if they killed them, clone Thor as a weapon of mass destruction and of course my favorite..HUNT DOWN META-HUMANS WHO DIDN'T FIGHT CRIME. To quote Shepard Smith "We're America, we don't do that! If that's where going, let me off the train." Hunting down people just because their different, when they have done nothing wrong, is fascism plain and simple. At that point Cap was still in White morality when he went down to D.C and began a miniature World War III. Well if this was a X-Men storyline...this would have been Xavier's fucking response.
    • Consider that the pro-reggers and the government went after the anti-reggers with far more firepower and enthusiasm than they have ever used going after the actual supervillains. Priorities were, as they say, totally out of whack.
    • Let's also point out that Marvel essentially went through the idea of superhuman registration twenty years ago with the Mutant Registration Act, which became a central plot point of the X-books for quite a while and was presented as a Very Bad Thing. Now we've got what is effectively a Mutant Registration Act on steroids, that is extended to everyone that has superpowers, not just mutants...and people like Reed Richards and Tony Stark are supporting it. Character Derailment, anyone?
    • Oh, and here's a little thing all those people calling for superhuman registration seem to have forgotten. It's the nature of the Marvel Universe that people acquire superhuman powers through any number of accidents, flukes, and random occurences. This means that just about anyone, if they get in the way of a random radiation blast, chemical spill, or anything else, can find themselves suddenly being forced to choose between risking their lives at the government's command, or being jailed for the rest of their lives in another dimension. This troper would love to see a story where Sally Floyd ends up with superhuman powers through sheer accident and ends up being thrown in jail because she claims the government is violating her civil rights.
    • Well, this does not negates the necessity to keep tabs on people with pocket nukes and makes the idea of Superhuman Registration Act automatically bad. However, the Superhuman Registration Act as actually presented in Civil War was essentially an attempt to strip most of civil rights from a fairly vaguely defined group of people. With the Act being so repressive, the pro-reg side couldn't possibly end up as morally sound.
    • The above is addressed in the What If? "good-end." Basically, Iron Man and Cap talk and agree that holding super heroes accountable is a good thing, but the problem is trusting the government to essentially have fascist-like controls over every super powered individual. The solution? Hero self-regulation. The heroes form their own mini-U.N. and they watch over each other. Newer heroes are paired with veterans so that they learn to be a proper crime fighter, secret identities are protected from crooks, but still known to the leaders, and in general you get all the benefits of keeping a tab on the capes with none of the nasty "You'll fight because we said so or you'll spend life in prison"-style fascism.
  • An even better one: Brian Michael Bendis made an Iron Man one-shot where he goes to a SHIELD helicarrier to tell the dead body of Captain America something important. He then goes on at length about how he actually knew that the Civil War was going to happen and did next to nothing to stop it. That's right: not only did he know about everything that was going on and take the reigns anyway, at the end, do you know what he says to the dead body of Captain America? 'It wasn't worth it.' That's right; the countless human (and civilian) deaths that happened in this crossover were not worth it and did not matter. The best part? The best part has to be the ending, where we get a flashback of Iron Man going to the helicarrier when Captain America was imprisoned and alive. Captain America literally screams his lungs out at him, asking 'Was it worth it?!?!?!? TELL MEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!' And Iron Man responds: ''re a sore loser, Captain America.' And we were supposed to be rooting for his side?
    • T Vtropes has just come up with a better debate on the issue than Marvel managed with A-List talent.