Archived Discussion

This is discussion archived from a time before the current discussion method was installed.

Lale: From the Emo Teen page:
  • Jazz (originally) on Danny Phantom. Whiny? Check. Self-important? Double check. Trying to work her way to self-identification? Check, plus considering herself an adult trapped in a teenager's body. Thank God for Character Development. Oddly, she doesn't look at all like a stereotypical emo, and looks more like a stereotypical preppy.
Sam's attitude, on the other hand, which is covered by The Daria, was never lost.
Lale: How is Dani a Sue?

NeoYi: I actually made a list of the reasons on the main DP page.

Lale: I noticed, but tallying up traits like that that you might find on a Mary Sue Litmus test is the most inaccurate way I've ever found to judge a Mary Sue. She didn't get enough screen time to be adequately developed past what we saw.

NeoYi: True, she didn't have a lot of time on the series, but from what I did see of her, she had qualities to fit such. Okay, I'm gonna admit one of the reasons is because Danielle is the only character I HATE in the series, so I understand the removal, but I still do see her as some sort of Mary Sue—I mean, able to muster powers up to Danny's leve despite being destabilized and only {apparently} a few months old, lack of any real personality, etc. To me, Mary Sue isn't just a perfect rendition of a certain characters with no flaws. Danielle may not be a true Mary Sue by heart, but I see quite some traits in her. It didn't matter if she only appeared in two episodes, that was still a decent amount of time to establish at least a personality in her, one they didn't do. If only she was developed more—both in character and story; she had a lot of potential...

Lale: Didn't everything about that show have more potential than it received? *sigh*

NeoYi: Actually, I only really felt that way from Season Three onwards. Everything from Season One and Two (despite some mishaps of their own) seem to develop both the stories and characters, working in brilliant new plots while catering to older continuities and enhancing them (Episode Ten's introduction of Val's ghost suit being a much bigger plan by episode forty is one example—I thought that was brilliant). It's because of those reasons why I grew addicted to DP and more importantly, got back into cartoons in general (there was a gap between 1999-2004 where I had no cable and was mostly stuck with generic 4Kids anime). By Season Three, having new writers, any potential they did have crashed and burned thanks to poor writing (and possible Executive Meddling). I miss Steve Marmel.
  • Actually, the more I think about it now, I think Sam would fit the Canon Sue root better, especially come Season Three.

Lale: In the same way Amy March is — their writers think both girls are perfect, but they just come off as annoying.

ccoa: Without a Word of God on it or more episodes with the character, there's no way to see if the writers thought Dani was perfect, or they just condensed her development in order to save on screen time.

As to her powers being just as developed as Danny's: First, that's hard to judge. She seems to be about on par to Danny prior to Ultimate Enemy to me. She doesn't demonstrate any really advanced techniques, all she does is shoot ecto-blasts and use the standard ghost abilities of flying, intangibility, and overshadowing. Second, she had a tutor in the form of Vlad for the entirety of her existence on the use of her ghost powers, while Danny had to muddle through on his own. So it doesn't seem that unreasonable that she's on par with Danny, who's had them longer, since they're genetically nearly identical.

And sure, her personality isn't very developed, but let's face it, she didn't get much screen time, and half of it was in the execrable season three. She's a minor character, I'm not sure what you were expecting. Does it bother anyone that Technus, Ember, and Fright Knight don't get developed? Or Star? All of which have probably had more screentime than Dani.

I think people are falling into the "Mary Sue as a character I don't like" trap. She doesn't really have a lot of Sue traits. She doesn't overshadow (no pun intended) the hero, she doesn't save the day single-handedly, no one reacts to her unrealistically or more favorably than expected, she doesn't steal the romantic spotlight (ew!), she doesn't hang around to become The Wesley, she doesn't appear to be an Author Avatar or otherwise a mouthpiece for the author, etc. The only one I think you can apply is being a clone (literally and mostly figuratively) of the main character, and that doesn't automatically make one a Sue.

EDIT: It's been a week and no one has bothered to respond. I went ahead and took the Copy Cat Sue and Flat Character tropes off the page.

Neo Yi: A lack of screen time isn't an excuse. Skulker, Ember, Youngblood, Spectra, most of them had at least two major appearances (the rest were merely cameos) that managed to establish a character trait onto them (from their first appearance, mind you). Spectra is a sadistic vamp-like creature, Skulker is a determined hunter with a code, Youngblood is bratty and annoying, etc. Danielle however is nothing more then a pale shadow of Danny. Her only form of actual character was when she was racing against Danny as a fun competition ("Kindred Spirits"). All other times, she is merely reacting to the scene that is bestowed upon her.

You can't use Star as an example, she's merely a tertiary character with no purposeful backgrounds, nor is she in need of one. Danielle may not be a classic Mary Sue, but she IS a Flat Character and a Copy Cat Sue (which fits her description to a tee, just canonical). Danielle is Danny's clone and plays an important role in his Character Development and Big Brother Complex. She is an important character in an overall scale, but she plays more plot device then have her own personality, serving to enhance other characters' personalities and developments then getting one herself. All the other villains, even the ones who made only one appearance (sans much of the Flat Character traits of the many Season Three's baddies) have a defined personality. What's Danielle's excuse? Clone, yes, but that can only hold so far. She has the free will to be her own person. I'm not looking for character development, I'm looking for character. Big difference.

In the end, the writers just didn't take the advantage they could have used on her. Though I'm under the impression her potential is limited. Her death would have been a greater impact then her living because she ends up virtually useless as she is, I repeat, a pale shadow of Danny, as well as a third wheel that ruins the dynamic between the half ghost status of Vlad and Danny. They no longer even feel unique because of her, but this is another different subject altogether.

Ronnie: Really? Her potential is limited? I took it the other way, really- she had too much potential. If DP was the sort of show that could pull off a Lower-Deck Episode, Danielle could carry one easily. I mean, she's a kid on the run from the law, who has ethics similar to Danny. She's really perfect Spinoff Bait, an unexplored character who could easily carry a deeper observation. But, they couldn't really do this too much to avoid two things- 1, her taking the spotlight off of Danny himself, and 2, the obvious not-Y7-friendly aspects of a kid living on the run.

Big T: Why the heck is "a naive behavior with much of Danny's traits and character" potholed to Flat Character? When long phrases are potholed, they are supposed to link to what they are about. While Dani may be flat, such behavior is not indicative of that. She could have all those traits and still be a well-rounded character. We need to find a better link. I think Distaff Counterpart could work for the last half, but "naive behavior" will take some searching.

  • Neo Yi: I removed that link from her description, but I kept the "Flat Character" in her description list because as far as I'm concerned, two episode appearance, still lacking any sense of well-rounded character.

Neo Yi: Actually, it is worded as "What, you think I sit home and invent new cookies all day?" I checked the episode.

Neo Yi: Alright, I don't want this page to turn into an Edit War—it's something that is boldly unnecessary over two screenshots. While I don't understand why someone can't simply make their own screen caps, I'm willing to make compromises since the last thing I need to be is some sorta TV Tropes Nazi. Can the least people do is remove my logo on both pics and the blue border around the Vlad pic before use?

My only other issue is the matter of size. Shouldn't both of them be smaller? I don't know the official ruling about that, so I'll let someone else handle that matter.