Old Magnificent Bastard thread
Welcome to the Magnificent Bastard proposal thread! This is the thread where new Magnificent Bastard examples are vetted, approved, and written up. If you're looking for the general cleanup thread (for cuts, rewrites, expansions, and the like), please go here
Important: Before suggesting any new examples, please read the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List; if you have any questions, the odds are high they are answered there. Additionally, please check here for the earliest date a work can be discussed (usually two weeks from the U.S. release date) and whether the work has already been reserved by another user.
Here is how the process works:
- If you have a candidate to propose, you can simply come right in and propose them! If the character's run is brief, such as a single issue of a comic book, then a simple summary of their actions and any potential mitigating features will be enough; for longer-running candidates, an effortpost (EP) might be helpful for organizing the proposal. An EP is not outright required, but please be mindful that if a post becomes too clunky and unorganized, it can be very hard for other people to follow.
- After the proposal, there will be a 72-hour discussion and voting period, where people may ask questions and vote on the candidate. The number of upvotes must outnumber the downvotes by at least five for the character to be considered "approved".
- Three days after the proposal has been made, if the character has been approved, you may post the writeup (the text to be posted on the trope page itself) on the thread and send it to the drafts page. Your candidate will soon be added to the MB subpage. If the work has a page, you should add your candidate to the relevant YMMV page. Voila! It's that simple!
Outside of this process, we do have a few ground rules:
- To keep the thread moving at a reasonable pace, there are some restrictions on when a proposal can be made. There should only be a maximum of four EPs posted both per page and per hour to ensure that nothing gets lost in the shuffle; additionally, each individual troper should only be proposing or writing up characters from a maximum of three works at a time (from initial proposals to end of their voting period). If your proposal would fall outside of either of these guidelines, we'd like to ask you to please wait until they would fit within; feel free to type them up on an outside document, and then when the time comes, you can just copy, paste, and post!
- No plagiarism of any kind. This is a very serious matter site-wide, as the website could get in actual legal trouble over this; as a result, this can very quickly lead to mod intervention. This can take many different forms:
- Direct plagiarism, i.e. wholesale copying. This is not only the easiest to find, but is also the most likely to warrant quick moderator intervention. To be clear, quoting in some places is perfectly acceptable, but it has to be very clear you're quoting from something else and it cannot be anything longer than a sentence or two - if you're quoting an entire work summary from Wikipedia, no one is going to believe you've actually consumed the work, so even if you cite your source, your candidate will be downvoted anyway.
- Self-plagiarism. Even if you can prove that you wrote the same text in both places, the site itself can't contain any of the duplicated text. If you already wrote something once before, it's not too hard to write it a second time.
- Using another site's work as a template for a proposal. Just because you don't copy and paste something directly doesn't mean it's any harder to detect if you're basing parts or all of your proposal on text someone else wrote. To be clear, this doesn't violate site rules and won't lead to mod intervention, but just like if you directly plagiarize, no one will believe you've consumed the work if you're clearly basing your proposal on something else. This thread largely operates on the honor system, and tweaking someone else's work to pass it off as your own is one of the fastest ways to lose trust.
- Votes must be for specific candidates, meaning no blanket voting (i.e. "yes to everyone I missed").
- If you are the first person to downvote a candidate, please provide an explanation of why when you do so. We're here for discussions above all, and a hit-and-run downvote doesn't facilitate anything.
- If a work is already reserved by another user, please don't comment on the work or any potential characters worth discussion before the discussion date. We know how exciting it is when a work has a keeper that you're waiting to talk about, but it's not fair to the person who reserved the work who is just as excited to lead the discussion to see the discussion getting spoiled before they get to do it. On the other hand, if the reservation only has one name attached, shoot them a PM - they may be down for a collaboration, which will get you in on the fun as well!
- Please keep the thread on-topic. While discussing the trope is fun and we encourage people to enjoy it, questions like "who's your favorite MB" are off-topic and can lead to thumps. That's the kind of question to take to people's PMs if they're willing. Similarly, while we encourage friendliness and familiarity with other users, posts should always have some kind of thread-relevant purpose; for instance, if you want to wish someone a happy birthday, feel free to, but if it's the only thing in the post, it's off-topic and needs something else alongside it. Again, though, while we strive for a friendly atmosphere, this is not Facebook; life updates are fun, but unless they have some kind of impact on your thread participation, please do not bring it here - we have Yack Fest for that.
- Please refrain from asking anything along the lines of "How Did We Miss This One?" In almost every case, the answer is simply "No one thought about it before". This Is a Wiki where everyone has different interests, and the fact that people missed a particular candidate, even one that seems like a textbook example of a trope or a character who is particularly iconic in pop culture, means absolutely nothing. The question is disruptive, has a simple and consistent answer, and provides nothing to any discussion.
- If you are suspended from other parts of the website, it is still possible to participate!
- For users who are suspended from editing the wiki, you still have full access to this thread. You can propose candidates and write them up with no issues whatsoever; while you will have to ask someone else to post the entry to the relevant pages once it is done, all write-ups are considered thread-approved - as in, done by consensus - and thus doing so does not violate any rules regarding meatpuppeting.
- If you are suspended from the forums, your participation is limited but not impossible. It is still possible for a forum-suspended user to assist in creating the write-up for a character who has already been approved; as previously mentioned, write-ups are inherently considered a consensus-based edit and thus not tied to any one particular user. However, you can not assist in the proposal of a character; as a proposal is based around the forum rather than the wiki, doing so with a forum suspension qualifies as meatpuppeting.
- Please keep all discussions "in-house".
- What other wikis use for MB equivalents is irrelevant here.
- Please be wary of using other wikis, Fandom or otherwise, as sources of information. They are just as fallible as a site like Wikipedia in regards to accuracy because they can be edited by any user, just as this site can.
- Do not attempt to force a communication with an author in an attempt to gather evidence or settle a debate; besides the fact that this is a YMMV trope and thus author intent has variable weight depending on the circumstance, doing so may cross the line into drama exportation, which is prohibited site-wide.
If you would like to use an EP for your candidate, here's the general format. This format does not have to be followed exactly, but these are the main topics that need to be covered:
What is the work?
This is a brief summary of the work you're going to discuss. We don't need a full plot summary here, just however much we need to understand going into the discussion — it can even be as simple as quoting the summary on the work's page.
Who is the candidate and what have they done?
This is essentially the character's biography — who they are, their story, their goals and methodology, and, preferably (though not required), what happens to the candidate at the end. It does not have to include every single thing they ever do — for some characters, we'd be here all day if that was the case — but it should include the highlights of their journey.
How are they Magnificent?
This is the point where you highlight the character's brilliance. How to they convey their intelligence and charm to the audience? What makes them stand out among the crowd? What are their goals and how do they go about accomplishing them? This part welcomes a lot of creative thinking — not everyone has to be a Machiavellian Diabolical Mastermind to be worth considering here! This is also the time to showcase how the character can think on their feet if it's necessary.
How are they a Bastard? How are they not too bad?
What kinds of moral lines is this character willing to cross for the sake of their goal? Are they willing to let innocents die? Start wars? Commit crimes? The character has to show some kind of unscrupulousness in order to count as a "Bastard". Notably, this character does not necessarily have to be the villain, and an Anti-Hero can cross the line if they're immoral enough, but they have to be immoral somehow.
This is also the section where you then state your case for why they're not too bad. Perhaps their good intentions help mitigate their crimes. Perhaps others are shown to be much worse than them. Perhaps they're prone to Pet the Dog moments or are even fighting on behalf of loved ones. Whatever the case, there are certain lines that an MB can't cross, but as long as their villainy is reasonable for their goal, they can be considered.
Final verdict?
This is where you post your final conclusion on the character in question. You can continue elaborating on your reasons or even just say a simple "yes" or "no"; at this point, we've heard everything we need to hear.
And that's everything you need to know. Welcome to the thread!
Edited by Twiddler on Jan 17th 2024 at 5:40:56 AM
Not the Eye
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Toshizo, Gabor, Q*Bert, John, Jutte and Diya (Great find!)
Edited by EmperorGeode on Apr 29th 2024 at 1:41:40 AM
Goku Black
Diya Hey this does remind me that we still have a few pending from legends of awesomness from others here.
I’ll take a potato chip… and EAT IT!
Hey guys, I figured I'd like to make my first write-up in this thread!
What's the Work?
Grand Theft Auto IV is the first installment in the GTA HD universe (and my favorite in the franchise). Taking place in Liberty City, you cross paths with numerous criminal organizations.
Who's the candidate?
Phil Bell is The Consigliere of the Pegorino family. Encountered when Niko Bellic begins working for the Pegorinos, he proves to be a formidable ally.
What Makes Him Magnificent?
Bell is the only member of the Pegorinos who is not of Italian ancestry, having risen up in the ranks based on sheer skill to be one of the most trusted members. Despite the organization being seen as a joke by literally everyone, Bell is one of the most important members, sending Niko to carry out missions, and partnering with him on a heist against Dimitri Rascalov's organization, stealing two boats full of drugs. He also connects him with The Fixer, who provides Niko with more jobs. In the Deal ending, he and Niko survive a shootout after Dimitri massacres a group of drug dealers, escaping the survivors and netting a huge profit. Bell also is the most genial member, not only being respectful to Niko but wishes him well in the Revenge and Deal endings, encouraging him to stay safe, and goes his own way in either scenario, avoiding the disaster that strikes Jimmy and his organization in both endings.
What Makes Him a Bastard
He's a high-ranking mobster who has no qualms sending Niko to kill people. Also he's suggested to be having an affair with Jimmy's wife (which regardless as to what you think of Jimmy is still bad form), though this is never confirmed outright, and is more hearsay from others. He's still a "bad guy", but he has his moments of Even Evil Has Standards, despising Ray and not trusting Dimitri from the get go.
Mitigating Issues
Not many. He isn't quite the juggernaut that Niko, Johnny, or Luis are, but he's still highly trusted, skilled, and competent. He is shown to be immensely paranoid regarding surveillance, but ends up being vindicated when it's revealed Jimmy's bodyguard was wearing a wire (sometimes it's played for laughs, like the cutscene where he and Ray obscure their dialogue) but his skill is never undercut, and Anthony's betrayal heavily vindicates him. He's skilled, shrewd, but also has his share of Noble Demon qualities.
Conclusion
I vote yes.
Edited by SarenApologist on Apr 29th 2024 at 5:30:59 AM
Look like I've got the green-light to do my write-up for the candidate. It's been three days, and she's got more than five "yes" votes
for Sutte, Diya (with all the Legends of Awesomeness candidates that are coming I won't be surprised if we get a page from them), and Phil Bell.
To John Marston.
to John Marston and Phil Bell
Diya, Marston and Phill Bell.
The MILF Virus
- D.N.Angel: Dark Mousy, alternate form of Daisuke, is a legendary thief, stealing to save the world. One half of the spirit of the Black Wings curse, Dark merged with the Niwa bloodline when their ancestor tried stealing the Black Wings during a ritual. One with the Niwas, Dark would emerge in every male descendant, fulfilling his role as thief and protector of the world. Emerging from Daisuke after his rejection, Dark continued to fantastical heist, establishing his legacy further unafraid of using others as bait, or stealing from innocents, even fighting if needed. Given the chance to end the Black Wings curse, Dark used clever tricky and will power to end Krad and the curse, sacrificing himself to prevent the city from being destroyed.
Edited by TheImmortalAngelNewton on Apr 30th 2024 at 11:00:18 PM
"Are you the devil?" "Don't compare to me to those small fry" - Mir
The Rival got approved! Here's the writeup, how does it look?:
- Super Press Space to Win Action RPG 2009: The Rival is The Dragon to the King, and the main threat to The Hero. Burning down a village in order to lure the Hero into a duel, the Rival compliments the Hero when he is evenly matched by him. Later, when the Hero is storming the King's castle, the Rival meets them for another duel, this time being soundly beaten. While momentarily shocked, the Rival lowers his sword, letting the Hero pass to face the King. When the Hero is at the King's mercy, the Rival swoops in to save the Hero, at the cost of his own life. In his final words, the Rival reveals that he is their brother, before passing on. Despite being in an obvious parody of RPGs, the Rival manages to be a charismatic, clever, and honorable villain in his own right.
Marston, Diya and Bell.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Lookin' good.
Also heads up that a Kirby pages has now been made https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/MagnificentBastard/Kirby
Edited by YorkobeShounen on Apr 30th 2024 at 10:07:54 AM
Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button
Too many potholes, though; usually we try to keep it around 5 potholes max.
One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.
I’ll take a potato chip… and EAT IT!
Noted; I’ll cut down the potholes later in a revised version that I’ll post with the Gaz write-up since that got approved
Bell.
Last year, I proposed a character from a fan-made article that offered a full-fledged Twice-Told Tale reinterpretation of the canonical plot. That character got downvoted due to nastiness, as I suspected he would be, but now I've realized another article from the same author might have a candidate.
Tsar-Maiden, Ivan the Fool and the Charming Spy.
Source material
The article is based on The Little Humpbacked Horse by Pyotr Yershov, a pretty straightforward literary fairytale, where Ivan the Fool, with the help of the eponymous magical sidekick, serves an old and stupid Tsar who first sends him to fetch the Firebird and then to kidnap the beautiful Tsar-Maiden, daughter of the Moon and sister of the Sun. The Tsar-Maiden announces she'll only marry someone young and handsome, and youth and beauty can be obtained by bathing first in boiling milk and water and then in cold water. The Tsar orders Ivan to test the method first, Ivan gets through it thanks to the help of the Humpbacked Horse, while the Tsar is boiled. The Tsar-Maiden takes the throne and marries Ivan.The article
The article, however, pointing out a Plot Hole or two, reimagines the whole thing as a secret plot by the Moon.The character
The Tsar-Maiden is sent by her parent the Moonnote to infiltrate the tsardom where the plot takes place. Another agent of the Moon, the Tsar's Spalniknote , plants the idea of marrying the Tsar-Maiden into the Tsar's head.Ivan is sent to steal away the Tsar-Maiden. With the Humpbacked Horse's help, he sets a trap for her in the form of a grand tent. The Tsar-Maiden "takes the bait", since actually it has been part of the plan all along.
So, back in the tsardom. The Tsar-Maiden can now take the throne, but she realizes that she can be blackmailed by the Spalnik who has a large influence over the Tsar. Therefore, the Tsar and then the Spalnik must be removed. As she settles down at court, she soon assesses the situation and sees that a) the Tsar delegates every hard task to Ivan b) Ivan has a magical helper. The Tsar-Maiden is able to see it firsthand when she orders her ring to be fetched from beneath the sea.
Since a single woman on the throne might be a bit too liberal for the time and place, she decides to arrange for Ivan to become her trophy husband. She orders the Tsar to use the rejuvenation/beautification method — which she knows to be lethal without magic — and, predictably, it works on Ivan with the Horse's help and kills the Tsar.
The Tsar-Maiden asks the gathered crowds if they would like her as a Tsarina. As the Tsar was old and rather foolish and indecisive and the Tsar-Maiden is a gorgeous young woman, the crowds' reply is expected. The Tsar-Maiden announces she'll marry Ivan, the crowds accept him for her sake, and off to the church they go to the wedding.
Most likely, the first decree of the new Tsar (urged by his wife, of course) will be a death sentence for the Spalnik.
Is she magnificent?
The first steps of the plan may have been planned by the Moon and/or the Spalnik, but after her "kidnapping", the Tsar-Maiden acts entirely on her own — during Ivan's visit to the Moon, it's shown the Moon has no idea who he is and therefore no idea of what exactly goes on at the Tsar's court.The Moon, though they are probably the mastermind, makes a blunder at one point: when Ivan tells them he's the one who kidnapped the Tsar-Maiden, the Moon is beside themselves with joy and hugs and kisses Ivan. Rather a weird way to behave for a loving parent, right?
The Tsar-Maiden never once makes such mistakes. Posing first as an innocent damsel, then as a capricious Bridezilla, right until the final scene where she reveals she intends to become the Tsarina, she achieves exactly what she wanted: the throne and power in the tsardom for some nebulous goal of her own and/or the Moon's.
Is she a bitch?
She has the (admittedly not very moral) Tsar killed, and, moreover, she ascends the throne despite having zero right to it — the Tsar dies before their wedding. And there's more: she announces that Ivan the Fool will marry her without asking him.Despite what the English Wikipedia article will tell you, there is no indication in the text that the Tsar-Maiden is Ivan's true love. Both times he ever comments on her looks, he says she's far too scrawny for his taste, and he is never shown to feel anything for her or even get worried about her potentially marrying the elderly Tsar. The article flat-out states that Ivan simply can't back out of marrying her in the final scene — because the crowds in front of them adore the new Tsarina and won't allow that.
Conclusion?
You decide.Edited by AutumnLeaves on Apr 30th 2024 at 12:38:55 PM
Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button
Does the Maiden force Ivan to marry her? Otherwise, it seems like her only victims are Asshole Victims, which puts a damper on the Bastard part.
One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.
That's basically what she does. "Hey, do you guys want me as Tsarina? Oh, and that one will be my husband." Ivan is never asked, even the canon text makes it clear he isn't attracted to the Maiden, and in this article, it's clearly said that "as if he could protest in the presence of the crowd that is mad about the new Tsarina!"
General question regarding Arthur Morgan from RDR 2 not qualifying as an Mb: I know that the reason he doesn't make the cut is because his Low Honor version can potentially meet an undignified end, but my question is why can't we just count the High Honor version of him as an MB? It's been a while since I played the game, but to my memory there's a fair amount of characterization differences between the High Honor and Low Honor versions of him (such as Low Honor Arthur being more greedy and just generally scummy all around, including being more annoyed about not getting money than he is sad about Sean's death), especially when compared to John in the first game where the only difference it made was his dialogue purely outside of missions and how people react to you.
I think our site policy generally says that if one version of a character in a game with multiple paths doesn't count, none of them count. I don't necessarily agree with that with a character that's well-defined and not an RPG character. Morrigan isn't a blank slate at all and is a defined character, but that's how it is. I remember Alpha Protocol has a MB protagonist with multiple decisions, but he counts in all of the endings you get.
Edited by Orangutans on Apr 30th 2024 at 10:53:01 AM
Classy, Refined, Unstable
Is there any confirmation about which ending for Arthur is canon? They confirmed it for the GTA V protagonists ending being the Deathwish Ending (which is why I plan on giving Franklin an EP in the future) so there's no nasty betrayal at the end and all the main antagonists get fucked over.
If there's a confirmed ending for Arthur that ends decently for him, I'd be game for an EP.
Oh, Mr. Kennedy, you entertain me. To show my appreciation, I will help you awaken from your world of clichés.
Yeah, unless a character in a game counts in all routes, or a route where they count is considered the true/canon ending; they don't count.
On the Kirby page, while I'm not opposed to it, I would think that there would be some discussion here about creating it. That and I'm not sure if Brawl Dedede would even be on it.
Got a proposal now:
Work
Kung Fu Panda: The Dragon Knight is the third DTV Kung Fu Panda show. Here, Po loses his Dragon Master title and embarks on a worlwide journey to stop a pair of weasels from obtaining the Tianshang Weapons, mystical weapons created by the four Ancient Masters (Mastodon, Long-Tooth, Giant Sloth and Ostrich) that could destroy the world, with aid from Mr. Ping, Wandering Blade, a bear knight from England and the old monkey thief from India, Rukhmini. Later on others such as Akna, the quetzal from South America and Colin, a deer knight, join them as well.
The second season's first arc sees the team travel to India, specifically Rukhmini's home city of Raipur to find clues about one of the weapons, finding themselves entangled in the plots of a rich wannabe magnate elephant named Jayesh, who plots to marry Padma, the daughter of one of Rukhmini's old friends and partner-in-crime/lover, the flying squirrel Diya, for his own ends.
Candidate
Diya is a former thief who adventured in her youth with Rukhmini, the two becoming more than friends. However, Rukhmini left India to search for the Tianshang Weapons and wound up sealed in an ancient city with Diya retiring and becoming a restaurant owner. When Jayesh begins buying properties from Raipur with the ultimate plan to eventually buy everything out so he can demolish the town and build a parking lot to profit of with her restaurant being the only property he's yet to buy, Diya begins to plan ahead to thwart his scheme and return Raipur's properties to the citizens he bought out from. Introducing Padma, to Jayesh, she proposes him to marry her daughter so they can share ownership of the restaurant which Jayesh accepts.
When Rukhmini returns after 30 years alongside the Dragon Knights, Diya is initially bitter over Rukhmini leaving but is able to cooperate with the Dragon Knight's plan to obtain a amulet Jayesh owns that hosts the key to finding one of the weapons: the Storm Wheel, giving them a complex heist so they can achieve it, though she also states she will sell them out to Jayesh should they mess up. When the raid is almost successful, Po and his partners ultimately get caught thanks to Diya selling them out and revealing she'd planned to con them from the start, returning the stolen amulet personally, gaining Jayesh's trust.
While the wedding is happening, the Dragon Knights break out and try to steal back the amulet from Jayesh and are confronted by Jayesh's cobra guards, with Diya helping Jayesh and Padma to speed up their wedding ceremony to finish it soon so they won't be interrupted, with Rukhmini personally fighting her, ultimately coming out on top. Despite the team's efforts, the wedding goes through.
Once the dust settles after the ghost of Master Mastodon is unleashed from the amulet and then pacified, Jayesh arrives gloating that he now owns Raipur and can now demolish the town as he'd intended... Only for Padma to reveal that she turned his "what's yours is mine" terms against him by making her eligible to have ownership of Jayesh's properties, which she signs over to her mother as had been planned by Diya from the start. With Jayesh's plot foiled and his financial status ruined, Padma and Diya make Jayesh work at their restaurant to pay off his debts, along the way they become a genuine family with Diya accepting Jayesh as a legitimate son-in-law once he himself truly falls in love with Padma.
In the third season, Diya welcomed Rukhmini back again when the continents were merged back into Pangea and married her, during Rukhmini's birthday party she organized a high-speed raid across Raipur for old time's sake and later on lets Rukhmini go without any grudge to help save the world alongside the Dragon Knights. After Pangea is split apart for good and the world is saved, Diya joins Rukhmini's crew of pirates when the latter becomes the new Pirate Queen, bidding goodbye to her daughter and son-in-law in the process.
Is she Magnificent?
Diya is a former rogue who nonetheless retired to become an honest restaurant owner though never lost her cunning, fighting nor planning skills proving herself to be an equal or superior to Rukhmini in both thieving and fighting. She predicts Jayesh's plot to buy out everything in Raipur ahead of time and tricks him into marrying her daughter so he can own her restaurant and then use said union to have Padma sign ownership of all their properties to her, even secretly planning a heist for the Dragon Knights and ratting them out to gain Jayesh's trust. Despite some setbacks and the Dragon Knights' interference, the wedding goes through, letting her gain control of Raipur and stop Jayesh's plot for good, forcing him to work for her in her restaurant to pay off his debts. She outfoxes everyone and even Rukhmini admits her con was the greatest of all time.
Despite what he's done, Diya treats Jayesh well while working at his restaurant and it leads to him joining her family for real and with genuine love for Padma. She also genuinely loves Rukhmini and though initially angry at her for leaving for 30 years, forgives her and rekindles their relationship to the point of marriage, accompanying her wife later on her new life as the new Pirate Queen.
Is she a Bastard?
She was a shameless and remorseless thief and con artist who enjoyed every second of her work long after her retirement. And despite having good intentions for her home with her scheme to con Jayesh out of all his properties, she also had no issue with endangering Rukhmini and her friends by ratting out the heist she planned out to Jayesh so he can trust her. At the end she also joins Rukhmini's crew of pirates, leaving her honest life behind to once again be a criminal and thief.
Verdict
Up to you. Counts for me
"Bingo! If two species hate each other, they will wipe each other out on their own."