Old Complete Monster cleanup thread
Welcome to the Complete Monster proposal thread! This is the thread where new Complete Monster examples are vetted, approved, and written up. If you're looking for the general cleanup thread (for cuts, rewrites, expansions, and the like), please go here
Important: Before suggesting any new examples, please read the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List; if you have any questions, the odds are high they are answered there. Additionally, please check here for the earliest date a work can be discussed (usually two weeks from the U.S. release date) and whether the work has already been reserved by another user.
Here is how the process works:
- If you have a candidate to propose, you can simply come right in and propose them! If the character's run is brief, such as a single issue of a comic book, then a simple summary of their actions and any potential redeeming qualities will be enough; for longer-running candidates, an effortpost (EP) might be helpful for organizing the proposal. An EP is not outright required, but please be mindful that if a post becomes too clunky and unorganized, it can be very hard for other people to follow.
- After the proposal, there will be a 72-hour discussion and voting period, where people may ask questions and vote on the candidate. The number of upvotes must outnumber the downvotes by at least five for the character to be considered "approved".
- Three days after the proposal has been made, if the character has been approved, you may post the writeup (the text to be posted on the trope page itself) on the thread and send it to the drafts page. Your candidate will soon be added to the CM subpage. If the work has a page, you should add your candidate to the relevant YMMV page. Voila! It's that simple!
Outside of this process, we do have a few ground rules:
- To keep the thread moving at a reasonable pace, there are some restrictions on when a proposal can be made. There should only be a maximum of four EPs posted both per page and per hour to ensure that nothing gets lost in the shuffle; additionally, each individual troper should only be proposing or writing up characters from a maximum of three works at a time (from initial proposals to end of their voting period). If your proposal would fall outside of either of these guidelines, we'd like to ask you to please wait until they would fit within; feel free to type them up on an outside document, and then when the time comes, you can just copy, paste, and post!
- No plagiarism of any kind. This is a very serious matter site-wide, as the website could get in actual legal trouble over this; as a result, this can very quickly lead to mod intervention. This can take many different forms:
- Direct plagiarism, i.e. wholesale copying. This is not only the easiest to find, but is also the most likely to warrant quick moderator intervention. To be clear, quoting in some places is perfectly acceptable, but it has to be very clear you're quoting from something else and it cannot be anything longer than a sentence or two - if you're quoting an entire work summary from Wikipedia, no one is going to believe you've actually consumed the work, so even if you cite your source, your candidate will be downvoted anyway.
- Self-plagiarism. Even if you can prove that you wrote the same text in both places, the site itself can't contain any of the duplicated text. If you already wrote something once before, it's not too hard to write it a second time.
- Using another site's work as a template for a proposal. Just because you don't copy and paste something directly doesn't mean it's any harder to detect if you're basing parts or all of your proposal on text someone else wrote. To be clear, this doesn't violate site rules and won't lead to mod intervention, but just like if you directly plagiarize, no one will believe you've consumed the work if you're clearly basing your proposal on something else. This thread largely operates on the honor system, and tweaking someone else's work to pass it off as your own is one of the fastest ways to lose trust.
- Votes must be for specific candidates, meaning no blanket voting (i.e. "yes to everyone I missed").
- If you are the first person to downvote a candidate, please provide an explanation of why when you do so. We're here for discussions above all, and a hit-and-run downvote doesn't facilitate anything.
- If a work is already reserved by another user, please don't comment on the work or any potential characters worth discussion before the discussion date. We know how exciting it is when a work has a keeper that you're waiting to talk about, but it's not fair to the person who reserved the work who is just as excited to lead the discussion to see the discussion getting spoiled before they get to do it. On the other hand, if the reservation only has one name attached, shoot them a PM - they may be down for a collaboration, which will get you in on the fun as well!
- Please keep the thread on-topic. While discussing the trope is fun and we encourage people to enjoy it, questions like "who's your favorite CM" are off-topic and can lead to thumps. That's the kind of question to take to people's PMs if they're willing. Similarly, while we encourage friendliness and familiarity with other users, posts should always have some kind of thread-relevant purpose; for instance, if you want to wish someone a happy birthday, feel free to, but if it's the only thing in the post, it's off-topic and needs something else alongside it. Again, though, while we strive for a friendly atmosphere, this is not Facebook; life updates are fun, but unless they have some kind of impact on your thread participation, please do not bring it here - we have Yack Fest for that.
- Please refrain from asking anything along the lines of "How Did We Miss This One?" In almost every case, the answer is simply "No one thought about it before". This Is a Wiki where everyone has different interests, and the fact that people missed a particular candidate, even one that seems like a textbook example of a trope or a character who is particularly iconic in pop culture, means absolutely nothing. The question is disruptive, has a simple and consistent answer, and provides nothing to any discussion.
- If you are suspended from parts of the website, it is still possible to participate!
- For users who are suspended from editing the wiki, you still have full access to this thread. You can propose candidates and write them up with no issues whatsoever; while you will have to ask someone else to post the entry to the relevant pages once it is done, all write-ups are considered thread-approved - as in, done by consensus - and thus doing so does not violate any rules regarding meatpuppeting.
- If you are suspended from the forums, your participation is limited but not impossible. It is still possible for a forum-suspended user to assist in creating the write-up for a character who has already been approved; as previously mentioned, write-ups are inherently considered a consensus-based edit and thus not tied to any one particular user. However, you can not assist in the proposal of a character; as a proposal is based around the forum rather than the wiki, doing so with a forum suspension qualifies as meatpuppeting.
- Please keep all discussions "in-house".
- What other wikis use for CM equivalents is irrelevant here.
- Please be wary of using other wikis, Fandom or otherwise, as sources of information. They are just as fallible as a site like Wikipedia in regards to accuracy because they can be edited by any user, just as this site can.
- Do not attempt to force a communication with an author in an attempt to gather evidence or settle a debate; besides the fact that this is a YMMV trope and thus author intent has variable weight depending on the circumstance, doing so may cross the line into drama exportation, which is prohibited site-wide.
If you would like to use an EP for your candidate, here's the general format. This format does not have to be followed exactly, but these are the main topics that need to be covered:
What is the work?
This is a brief summary of the work you're going to discuss. We don't need a full plot summary here, just however much we need to understand going into the discussion — it can even be as simple as quoting the summary on the work's page.
Who is the candidate and what have they done?
This is essentially the character's biography — who they are, their story, the crimes they commit, and, preferably (though not required), what happens to the candidate at the end. It does not have to include every single thing they ever do — for some villains, we'd be here all day if that was the case — but it should include the highlights of their journey.
Any redeeming qualities? Freudian Excuse?
This is where any potential redeeming characteristics or tragic backstory should be discussed. Do they have a tragic past? Do they show that Even Evil Has Standards or Even Evil Has Loved Ones? Maybe a Pet the Dog moment or two? This is where these should be discussed in full. Not every potential redeeming moment is a clear-cut disqualifier, but we should hear of any potential issues to ensure the character is discussed in full.
Are they bad enough?
A Complete Monster has to be particularly vile by the standard of the work they appear in. Therefore, you should look at what the character does compared to similar characters in the same work. This takes into account things like:
- Their resource level (a human Serial Killer can't stand up to an alien Omnicidal Maniac, but they can be bad by the standard of other human serial killers)
- The amount of time they have to work with (such as a one-shot character versus long-running antagonists)
- The quantity vs. quality of their crimes compared to others (someone with a lower victim count but far more visceral and personal crimes could be considered as equally bad overall as someone with a higher body count but less horror involved)
Essentially, this section is an analysis of the kinds of villainy shown in the work and an explanation of why this particular character's villainy stands out within it.
Final verdict?
This is where you post your final conclusion on the character in question. You can continue elaborating on your reasons or even just say a simple "yes" or "no"; at this point, we've heard everything we need to hear.
IMPORTANT NOTICE: This thread tackles very serious and dark matters on a daily basis. We will be discussing things like murder, rape, torture, human trafficking, crimes against children, and in particularly dark cases, several of these issues at the same time. We keep a lighthearted air, but all candidates carry the general assumption that these are awful individuals committing disgusting crimes. We ask that if you participate, you do so with the requisite seriousness such dark topics require; exclamations of how gross something is, whether serious or sarcastic, are disrespectful to the topics at hand, and if you cannot handle such topics, please do not participate.
And that's everything you need to know. Welcome to the thread!
Edited by Twiddler on Jan 17th 2024 at 5:42:49 AM
I’ll take a potato chip… and EAT IT!
Looking at the lyrics, there’s also this
Even if it’s a single entity doing these things, that’s a pretty bad Freudian Excuse.
If it does count, it’ll have to be if the music video goes in a different direction than the song but I’m not liking the looks of things.
Edit: Kromer sounds bad, but A( is she “batshit insane” in the delusional and sociopathic sense, or insane in the sense that she can’t tell what she’s doing is wrong sense? And B( what do the other villains do? Because even if they can’t count they still contribute to the HS.
Edited by LarryT on Apr 30th 2024 at 6:29:35 AM
In honor of Akira Toriyama
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_down_emote.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
for the Puppet, abstaining on Acnologia for the same reason as Passing.
Kromer... I'm unsure. She's really nasty but the standard of the Project Moon verse is a steep one with all the shit the other villains get up to. I'm abstaining for the time being.
I’ll take a potato chip… and EAT IT!
Just checked something I remembered, She was proposed and downvoted for coming from a work with this heinous standard.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
I guess I question whether the black puppet is supposed to represent that narrator or not. I agree that obviously only the music video would count, but there's just no direct indication that it was also abused in the past.
Edited by Orangutans on Apr 30th 2024 at 9:27:07 AM
I’ll take a potato chip… and EAT IT!
I’m going to bed. I’ll watch the music video to see what I think of it, and offer a vote on the puppet then. Kromer abstain on the other candidate.
That is the precise reason for my hesitation. The standard is an absolutely stacked one and the only saving grace for her qualification is that she does not have the same amount of power as the other characters who do a lot. And even then I don't know if that would be enough.
Showtime!
Yeah, to Kromer. (I also don't think she can be presented as having much lower power, isn't she basically the head of N wing?)
Edited by LoadsAndLoadsOfFreeTime on Apr 30th 2024 at 6:39:18 AM
You've been kicked out of the Mickey Mouse Clubhouse. :(
(x6) Honestly, I disagree with that reasoning - mainly for the fact that while Kromer does not have the biggest body count in the series, none of the characters that match or surpass her would manage to pass through the Complete Monster requirements:
For example, Library of Ruina, set in the same universe, a character called Philip transforms into a monster and goes into a mass-murdering rampage that kills literally dozens of thousands of people, but was manipulated in doing so by other villains and has an entire tragic story that would disqualify him from being CM candidate.
Argalia, the Big Bad of Ruina, is motivated by being Driven to Madness by his sister's death and is, in his mind, a Well-Intentioned Extremist. Roland, the protagonist, HAS committed mass murder, but again - for tragic reasons that would disqualify him from being a CM - he also obtains a redemption by the end of the game.
In fact, out of all of the characters in all of Project Moon games, I think only a few other characters like Elena/Blood-Red Night, an Ax-Crazy vampiric serial killer with a much lower body count than both Philip AND Kromer, would tick off all the CM boxes, and the organizations like the Wings are too faceless to qualify by the rules.
Also, remember this part of the thread rules: "(someone with a lower victim count but far more visceral and personal crimes could be considered as equally bad overall as someone with a higher body count but less horror involved)" Philip's rampage, despite being much more destructive, is MUCH less visceral and personal than the ones Kromer commits.
I think Kromer more than qualifies.
She is not, she is the leader of a sub-group within N. Corp. She would be, at most, one of several Directors of N. Corp, but is probably lower on the totem pole than that.
Edited by Makir on Apr 30th 2024 at 3:39:34 PM
Changing my vote on Kromer to a ![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
with the above in-mind.
Showtime!
It doesn't matter if other characters who would beat her in heinousness have redeeming features, they still contribute to the heinous standard. My bad on misremembering her rank though
Absolute destiny... apeachalypse?
Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button
It doesn’t matter whether the characters with higher body counts have redeeming qualities or not; every villain, even those that do not qualify themselves, contribute to the standard. Does she carve a unique enough niche with a substantial victim count for her tier? Resources are what matter here. We just rejected Pocketcat, a serial Child Eater with plenty of victims, because he exists in a world where even the lowly Mooks are horrible rapists and the like.
![[nja]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/user_ninja_2074.png "[nja]"){kind=small}
Edited by MasterN on Apr 30th 2024 at 6:49:13 AM
One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.
I think comparing Kromer with the likes of whole Wings is a bit unfair because...well, she is the leader of one group, and Wings are massive Evil, Inc. corporations with no faces attached to them.
I still believe she qualifies when you put her in comparison to the other villains of the game itself.
I think what makes Kromer particularly heinous is the fact that she has a predatory drive to her villainy and her obsession towards Sinclair that most other Project Moon-related villains just don't have. Kromer is actively sadistic, giggling with glee as her men torture an entire town's worth of people.
The City is a horrible place where you might be gutted by a thug so they can harvest your organs (literally the first enemies you fight in Ruina do exactly that) but very few of the villains you see take active enjoyment in the causing of suffering as Kromer does - again, the only other comparison you can have are really the cannibal chef couple in Ruina (and they have much lower on-screen bodycount) and the previously mentioned Elena.
And I don't believe any other villain in Limbus would qualify at the moment.
I'm confident in saying that Kromer's brand of evil is especially heinous
◊, and I think it's important to mention it's meant to be seen as such by the player. This is especially important since Sinclair's storyline is all about how he went from a 'world of light' (a world where he lived a comfortable life most people would envy) to a 'world of darkness' (a world of depravity and evil) due to Kromer.
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
I was referring to the original comment that was posted about the heinousness standard in the setting, which brought up W. Corp's Warp Trains.
Edited by Makir on Apr 30th 2024 at 4:10:55 PM
Showtime!
We're not comparing her to Wings, we're comparing her to individual characters?
Absolute destiny... apeachalypse?
Going with a for Kromer.
A heinous standard is a measure of how awful a crime is in a setting. It doesn't matter if the others in the setting are pure evil are not. Even a hero who has caused high casualties will contribute to the heinous standard.
Even in the EP, Kromer's crimes are comparable to that of several non-keepers who only don't keep due to redeeming qualities.
Frolaytia X Qwenthur of Heavy Object
Kromer
....Phenomenal
for Circus Boy, Impostor, Jebus, and the Evil.
for the Puppet and Kromer.
Abstain on Acnologia.
There remains a foothold out of this mire — now climb.
Shin Megami Tensei IV
To be fair, in cases of this sort of Shared Universe, we don't give some lee way for people in individual stories?
Watch me destroying my country
Shin Megami Tensei IV
Meh, if I don't do it, nobody would.
Dragon Ball AF is THE Dragon Ball fan project, spanning multiple fanarts, fan manga and ficfics.
The interpretations are many and many of them divergent. With many authors.
See, I've having a bit of nostalgia and found a...unique fan project.
A compillation of AF related projects by the user DBZ News, combining multiple sources for the fan sequel after GT.
So, the premise is that after GT, new threats appear forcing Goku to return while the rest of Saiyans join him to reach higher and higher power levels that go beyond the Multiverse itself.
Who could be a good Final Boss for this storyline? What about giving new powers for known villains?
Fun Fact, DBZ News continues AF in his own fanfic, but he himself calls it a new Alternate Continuity that diverges from the compillation of stories that he made.
Who is Cellbuuzer?
The Fusion Dance of Frieza, Cell and the essence of Majin Boo.
Frieza and Cell, after their defeat at hands of Goku in GT, were sealed to "Hell 5", a higher dimensional Hell for either the strongest and more evil beings in the multiverse.
Frieza and Cell use their time to learn the Fusion and master it, improving it and turning it permanent. They finally succeed and become a powerful being that now matches Goku's new transformations, but they know this isn't enough, Saiyans are too dangerous to be content with a slight advantage.
So they escape Hell to travel to Earth and kidnap Ubb, extracting the essence of Kid Boo from him and resurrecting Majin Buu, the mindless monster. To prevent interventions,they travelled to a different universe and threatened their strongest warrior to send her to fight the Z Fighters, telling her that her universe will be spared in exchange.
Frieza and Cell are succesful in fusing with Buu and Cellbuuzer is born, with him destroying Hell as his first action.
Cellbuuzer creates a army of minions that wreck the multiverse, any dimension and realm is affected, while Cellbuuzer personally slaughters planets for amusement. Earth itself being destroyed as his first major action, with Goku and Vegeta's families being the only survivors thanks to Goku's teleportation.
Eventually, Cellbuuzer's struggle against the Saiyans would wreck the multiverse as mere collateral damage, with Cellbuuzen taking glee on the destruction and mocking his rivals like Vegeta for controlling their power.
When Goku reaches the ultimate transformation, the SSJ 10, Cellbuuzer tries to destroy all the cosmos in a fit of rage, but gets obliterated by Goku's Universal Kamehameha, a attack that erases his own existance as the prize to pay to save existance.
Heinous standard?
Multiversal massacres and killings before attempted Class Z apocalypse. Its Frieza and Cell, what you expect?
Mitigant traits?
Its Frieza and Cell, what you expect?
Veredict?
You decide.
Edited by KazuyaProta on Apr 30th 2024 at 12:07:09 PM
Watch me destroying my country
Just a starting content creator
I'm... not touching this one...
Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button
Why not? It doesn’t seem particularly odd or like it would be controversial?
Not the Eye
Cellbuuzer
Puppet and Kromer
Abstain on Acgnologia
The Emperor of Evil!
Abstaining on Acnolgia and Cellbuuzer personally.
No to Kromer.
Lizzid people!
Sure for Cellbuuzer
The last two I've done have been misses, but I feel like this one's gonna hit. Apologies in advance if this character has been discussed beforehand.
What is the work?
Limbus Company is a Turn-Based Strategy RPG Gacha Game set in a dystopian future setting known as 'the City'.Who is the candidate and what have they done?
KromerKromer not only brainwashes her grunts through sermons, they're also drugged up through their food rations in order to be obedient and to believe whatever she is saying, and there are a few implications that a number of the Inquisition members are desperate people picked up by the cult and subsequently drugged up and sent to be N. Corp's death squad.
She is an unapologetic sadist, and her group reflects that, with their methods of 'punishing heretics' involves torturing them continously to make them feel as much pain as possible before killing them.
Kromer also obtained an unhealthy and creepy obsession with one of the main characters of the game, Sinclair, having infiltrated his school in the past in order to manipulate him and faking to be his friend to allow her access to the secret laboratory underneath Sinclair's family's basement, while also attempting to subtly recruit him. After obtaining what she wanted, Kromer dropped her disguise and slaughtered Sinclair's family (due to them having artificial bodies), leaving Sinclair utterly traumatized in the process.
In the present, she acts as the Arc Villain of the third chapter of the game, where she and her group returns in full force to Sinclair's home town and slaughters everyone there, parading their corpses on steel nails as 'christmas decoration' to greet Sinclair, actively mocking him while at the same time trying to convince him to join her side, and her interactions with Sinclair have the theme of an abusive stalker with delusions of destined reunion.
On top of being a generally batshit insane Smug Snake, unable to even pretend to be Affably Evil in her attitude, her ideology of human purity is hypocritical, as what defines a 'pure human' is entirely arbitrary, as some of the Inquisitors under her willingly 'corrode' into fleshy abominations in an attempt to reach further 'purity', and she herself seeks to ascend and become a higher, 'purer' being - even if said being is not 'human' in any way a normal person would consider it.
Any redeeming qualities? Freudian Excuse?
Kromer's past goes generally unexplored, so it's impossible to know if she was always this crazy or what exactly pushed her down this path. What we see of her in the present lacks entirely in redeeming qualities or a tragic backstory - even the loyalty she inspires in her men is done through cult brainwashing and drugs, and never shows concern for them - she doesn't even seem to particularly care when her right-hand man and most fanatically loyal minion is killed by the main characters. Even her 'love' for Sinclair is possessive and portrayed as creepy and delusional. There is not a single interaction she has with any character that shows a positive side to her, her ideology, or her group.Are they bad enough?
While villains that commit massacres in this setting are not uncommon, Kromer's actions are shown to be particularly depraved in their purpose, methods and the way they negatively impact one of the main characters. Other Arc Villain characters in the game are either portrayed as somewhat tragic figures (such as Dongrang in Chapter 4 and the Walking Spoiler final boss of Chapter 6) or are evil people with at least some commendable traits - like Captain Ahab in Chapter 5, who at least shows that she has the Evil Virtues of confidence and determination for days and is able to inspire geniuine loyalty to her underlings without needing the tricks Kromer uses. Kromer, by comparison, lacks both of those traits.Her boss theme IS a banger
, though.
Edited by Makir on Apr 30th 2024 at 3:17:48 PM