To-do list:
- Clean up the on page examples and remove examples that don't fit the new definition.
- Remove wicks that don't fit the rewritten definition. Progress is being tracked using the Sandbox.Would Clean Wicks sandbox.
Would Hit a Girl often falls under People Sit on Chairs, having no narrative significance. Most examples I've seen are in cases where you wouldn't expect the attacker to care about gender, such as fighting Action Girls or with animals and monsters that don't know or care about human gender roles. While there are tropeworthy uses where characters are willing to harm defenceless (or seemingly-defenceless) women, fighting a woman who can clearly fight back says no more about a character than fighting a man does. The trope needs to be redefined to get rid of the pointless cases and focus only on ones where the attacked person being female actually matters.
A wick check of 76 wicks yielded the following results:
- 22 of them (29%) are correct examples with clear notability.
- 25 of them (33%) are technically correct, but not meaningful in-universe.
- 10 of them (13%) are either ZCE or misuse.
- 19 of them (25%) are unclear or mixed.
Edited by MacronNotes on Aug 15th 2023 at 11:22:31 AM
Right, but that's the current definition. And it's not a tropeworthy one.
Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure PurenessRequiring narrative significance is the point currently.
Edited by Amonimus on Jul 12th 2022 at 11:33:53 AM
TroperWall / WikiMagic CleanupJust come across this. I've voted to clean up the trope definition because it's definitely a problem for works where there's no narrative significance to an opponent's gender, so redefining it to address that makes sense. Even though the current trope is supposed to have characterisation significance, it's such a messy, sprawling description that it's easy to see why people might miss that, so the description is an issue even if a redefinition tweak wasn't on the cards.
I've also voted in favour of merging the trope with the aversion category of Wouldn't Hit a Girl as two are naturally intertwined, and the proposed redefinition practically makes that link a default. I think working that into the trope will help focus the new definition and help make it clear when the trope should be used and when it shouldn't (since examples will need to be indicating that this trope is in play to prevent the other trope functioning).
I've down-voted the rename because I don't think that's necessary. The problem isn't the name, it's the definition; the proposed definition change actually makes the current name more appropriate, not less.
Edited by Wyldchyld on Jul 13th 2022 at 10:49:50 AM
If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.Calling in favor of rewriting as mentioned here, here, and here. Feel free to sandbox it.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Jul 15th 2022 at 2:22:23 PM
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.If the discussion is still open, I'm in favour of rewriting it. I agree that it shouldn't be any instance of a man physically attacking a woman or whatnot. To summarize my own thoughts and what I've gathered from reading this thread, the contexts that are allowed for this trope are:
1. If chivalry or the value of not hitting a woman is expected in the setting or at least discussed/mentioned in the scene, or
2. If the act of attacking a woman considered a Kick the Dog moment or otherwise a step too far, with implicit double standards. (raised by amathieu13)
On how to demonstrate this in examples, I'll use entries from the Literature folder for reference:
1. Harry Potter, Prisoner of Azkaban:
2. The Hunger Games:
I think this sort of reasoning for the criteria makes the most sense.
P.S. In response to Amonimus:
Edited by AquaEclipse on Aug 7th 2022 at 12:29:30 AM
they/she; editor of Minecraft SMPsDiscussion isn't still open, but we did vote in favor of rewriting it. Since you were in favor of that anyway, you're free to rewrite it yourself if you want to.
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.I'd rather this trope not exist at all. It is implying women who are clearly adults are as innocent as children. In other words, it's sexist.
Double Standard is a thing. It may not be in the distant future, but if authors use it, it's a trope that exists. And we've decided to keep the description of it (also it still pending the rewrite sandbox), so this remark doesn't sound relevant to the TRS.
Edited by Amonimus on Aug 24th 2022 at 2:52:07 PM
TroperWall / WikiMagic CleanupYeah, I'm aware of Double Standards and the fact this will get rewritten (eventually), I was just responding to someone making a comment. And, there's nothing stating someone can't do that, unless it's popcorning or rude or something.
( I wasn't responding to your post and got )
Edited by Amonimus on Aug 24th 2022 at 2:54:52 PM
TroperWall / WikiMagic CleanupOk, whoops.
I personally feel like the trope should be both renamed and redefined, so that it sounds less offensive.
Renaming got 0:11 votes. Redefining (may not be what you've intended) got 31:1 votes. You can feel many things, but please notice the discussion has already moved on over a month ago.
Are you at going to help with new definition at least?
Anyway, I've started Sandbox.Would Hit A Girl, but I'm not motivated enough today to finish it.
Edited by Amonimus on Aug 28th 2022 at 10:00:46 PM
TroperWall / WikiMagic CleanupJust want to note that Scarlet was already suspended once for removing references to a trope they found sexist... so while they haven't done any edits like that since they seem to be hung up on the idea that our documentation of tropes like this is problematic, and it may not be worth trying to engage here.
Sandbox looks fine so far, I'll come back tomorrow to see if I can help at all. Too tired tonight.
Edited by WarJay77 on Aug 28th 2022 at 1:39:42 PM
Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure PurenessI'm not going to hook any more crowners for this thread. I'd rather see cleanup and rewriting get done (unless the latter has already been done, in which case only the former would be left).
And either way, Scarlet's not currently suspended.
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.To clarify, I was talking about an old suspension for removing entries of The Ditz.
Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure PurenessWait, so should we change Would Harm a Senior and Would Hurt a Child as well to be consistent?
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM DraftsThey're not in this thread's scope and I wouldn't lump them without a wick check.
TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup(x2) I honestly don't feel that's necessary. EDIT: Unless you want to do a Wiki Check or something.
Edited by RandomTroper123 on Aug 30th 2022 at 4:04:49 AM
This, except I'd like to add that even if a wick check showed problems, I wouldn't approve of expanding this thread's scope to include them, and would only approve of taking them to a new thread.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 30th 2022 at 5:02:21 AM
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.Bumping. How's progress so far?
TRS Queue | Works That Require Cleanup of Complaining | Troper WallI pinned a to-do list and made Sandbox.Would Clean Wicks to use once Sandbox.Would Hit A Girl is moved into place. The former's text is kind of a placeholder until the finalized description is moved into place.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Oct 7th 2022 at 10:12:16 AM
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.So for the rewrite all we need is:
- Hitting a female character is considered particularly bad in-universe
- The hitter doesn't have to be evil—-applies to anybody morally questionable.
For now, all I did was tweak the first sentence to this:
and then I condensed the description by leaving off paragraphs I didn't think were needed (I could be wrong though).
Macron's notes
Crown Description:
Concerns were raised that Would Hit A Girl's definition is too broad, and that the definition should be rewritten as proposed here, here, and here. Renaming was also suggested. Should it be rewritten, and should it be renamed?
(x3) Actually, it is characterization-related, given Wouldn't Hit a Girl exists for a reason. P.S. I'm a girl.
Edited by RandomTroper123 on Aug 31st 2022 at 5:25:40 AM