Bayonetta (The Game)

I don't get this "Luka has no connection on Bayonetta" though. That's literally the whole deal in the first game even. While they met in weird timelines, most of their major interactions are in their adult selves.

Like I find this weird that people living together are apparently romantic now. Imagine telling that to Regular Show, or the basic concept of shared apartment.

Edited by Ookamikun on Oct 31st 2023 at 1:34:54 AM

I thought Cereza and Jeanne were banging ever since they were walking together at the start of Bayonetta 2.

Plenty of people draw and write Mordecai/Rigby.

There's always a subtext if people want to see it that way.

Edited by FOFD on Oct 30th 2023 at 3:20:18 PM

I mean there's an "Oh my god, they where roommates" joke in here somewhere.

Or a Sailor Moon "They're also cousins!" joke.

"They aren't gay! Just really good friends!"

For Sailor Moon though it wasn't subtext or headcanon. It was outright in your face! That's like one of the worst examples to use.

I know. I indulged in them. Doesn't mean in canon they ended up in their own separate ways.

Edited by Ookamikun on Oct 31st 2023 at 8:24:22 PM

I mean they're explicit about it now. But honestly Haruka and Michiru's dynamic back in the 90's wasn't that dissimilar from Bayonetta and Jeanne's.

What? No. It's as obvious both in manga and anime (moreso in the manga of course). I even had a classmate who was obsessed with them back in grade school. Haruka and Michiru are also mostly exclusive to each other with the occasional former flirting to Usagi. Meanwhile Bayo gets to hang out with other characters.

Shojo-ai is quite explicit.

Edited by Ookamikun on Nov 1st 2023 at 1:25:25 AM

Haruka and Michiru where not explicit. You're really not using that word right. That's the problem that frustrates a lot of yuri fans. There's always been a thin veil of plausible deniability inserted between these couples.

So Haruka and Michiru could pose romantically, act like they're dating and stare longingly into each other's eyes but there was just enough missing that people could say they're "Just close friends" even as they die for each other. It's obvious they're in love... But not explicitly written.

You get that all the time in anime. Just recently there was the Mobile Suit Gundam: The Witch from Mercury controversy where the official stance on Suletta and Miorine was that their relationship was "Up to interpretation" even though they get engaged in the first episode. Yes, it's nonsensical! But it shows what yuri folks have to deal with when it comes to viewing WLW romance.

But despite the everpresent yuribait we live with it's still pretty rare for a pairing to completely disintegrate. Usually it really is "Up to interpretation" and a series ends with the girls still making googly eyes at each other. It's not ideal, but we've been trained to see that as the endgame. And, like with Haruka and Michiru, there's always hope that we'll get enough social progress going that they can make it explicit in a later work without some grey suit vetoing the idea.

And then Bayonetta 3 came along and nuked Bayojeane from orbit. All the while a chorus of dullards scream about how we're angry because we saw something that "obviously never existed." Can you not understand that frustration.

Edited by ShirowShirow on Oct 31st 2023 at 6:50:02 PM

Again, my guess was it was Executive Meddling from the Japanese Heterosexual Marriage Propaganda squad. It'll never be said, but 2 was pretty obviously romantic imo. Again, Luka was barely in 2 at all.

I'm just gonna say I'm fairly certain Phisat is saying Platinum/Sega bowed to internal pressure from reactionaries and not that the Japanese government directly interfered here, before anyone thinks anyone's throwing around conspiracy theories.

I would like to know whose idea it was ultimately. Bayonetta 3 has several writer credits, and like said Bayoluka might not have been any of theirs.

Yeah, I don't mean literal government meddling, I mean that some executives at Platinum or Sega or even Nintendo are big on the whole "go get heterosexually married and have children" thing and demanded changes to Bayonetta towards the same goal as the government is espousing.

While Bayonetta was never big on continuity, it's telling that it essentially had to jettison 2 from the canon entirely to make 3 work (and say 1 and 2 aren't canon to each other, which makes no sense at all, they form a Stable Time Loop). Such an extreme move reeks of Executive Meddling to me.

Edited by PhiSat on Oct 31st 2023 at 1:13:31 PM

I mean, the creative team for B3 is very different. I know JP Kellams was an important part of 1&2 that kept the story framing pretty coherent. Could be just regular bad storytelling.

But you also could be right too.

We dunno yet. We might never.

Hideki Kamiya had a notably higher level of involvement with Bayo 3 compared to 2 (And Cereza and the Lost Demon, by proxy due to being the expanded version of the secret level), 1, which directed, was when Bayo Luka was pushed, so he probably wanted to go back to that a bit.

He left Platinum now, so if we do get a Bayo 4 he won't be involved (Unless he decides to work with them as an independent contractor like how Sakura and Sora inc worked on Smash Bros and Kid Icarus Uprising)

lol I remember back in the day people made fun of people for assuming Luka was Bayo's love interest back in 1. All the Ship Tease moments wound up getting subverted, usually for the sake of humor.

I think that's part of the Strangled by the Red String aspect of the relationship. Luka was a Butt-Monkey and any Ship Tease with him and Bayonetta was Played for Laughs. It wasn't a serious thing. He was barely in 2 and was still as much of a joke, while Bayonetta and Jeanne's bond was emphasized with the whole point of the game being to rescue Jeanne's soul from Inferno. Then suddenly in 3 Luka's this supernatural being from a race that's never been brought up before now, can turn into a werewolf, and him and Bayonetta are soulmates. It's incredibly jarring.

Yeah the whole thing was just slap-dashed developed, it was very rushed in execution.

I kind of like the Fae/Werewolf part, though... If it were just one version of Luka. As EVERY version of Luka? Nah.

Whats really annoying is how Luka going werewolf was only explained in the codex.

It barely received any elaboration or explanation in the main story beyond an alternate Luca being the Fairy King.

So at least we agree that the Bayo and Luka does exist in 1 right? Feels like this is less of a canon war and more of arguing of ships. Even with all this tinfoilery about fucking government mandates of all places.

But as I said, I give up on arguing with fans and fandom because it's trying to fight an echo chamber. Same thing happened with Spiderverse during the sequel and look at how that turned out.

x11 But they were thoroughly in love, especially in the manga. This isn't "we share an apartment" tier, this is "we go on dates in front of the main protagonist" tier. It's just that they take a backseat to the whole Queen Serenity romance thing. And that's not even getting to the anime rendition of Sailor Starlights that had an excuse to make a short stint on lesbian pairing because Kou can "change to a man" as a disguise.

Edited by Ookamikun on Nov 2nd 2023 at 3:08:31 AM

Oh yeah Bayo/Luka was certainly implied in the first game. It's just that Bayonetta 2 seemingly walking it back was the status quo of the franchise for eight years. So no wonder the walk back of the walk back irked people.

Maybe it would have been better received if the pairing was handled better in Bayonetta 3, or if Bayo 3 didn't also do Jeanne super dirty... but as has been said, the game's writing is a huge mess even disregarding everything about ships.

I didn't see it at all in 1 except as a joke. Like "haha look at this sad Butt-Monkey thinking he has a chance" tier. Then 2 seemed like the final nail in the coffin of relevancy for it.

Yeah, if Bayoluka was a thing in 1 then so was Bayojeane. Something about the inherit romance of racing up a heavenly rocket to prevent your childhood rivalfriend from becoming god.

Hell, people'd be calling for an Adam and Eve Plot between the two if they weren't the same gender.

Edited by ShirowShirow on Nov 1st 2023 at 8:52:35 AM

It didn't feel that at all. If anything it started out as a joke until Bayonetta started to develop a thing, complete with pet calls.

An update for Bayonetta game sales on Switch.

Bayonetta 1: 1,240,000 units

Bayonetta 2: 1,230,000 units

Bayonetta 3: 1,090,000 units