Old Complete Monster cleanup thread
Welcome to the Complete Monster proposal thread! This is the thread where new Complete Monster examples are vetted, approved, and written up. If you're looking for the general cleanup thread (for cuts, rewrites, expansions, and the like), please go here
Important: Before suggesting any new examples, please read the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List; if you have any questions, the odds are high they are answered there. Additionally, please check here for the earliest date a work can be discussed (usually two weeks from the U.S. release date) and whether the work has already been reserved by another user.
Here is how the process works:
- If you have a candidate to propose, you can simply come right in and propose them! If the character's run is brief, such as a single issue of a comic book, then a simple summary of their actions and any potential redeeming qualities will be enough; for longer-running candidates, an effortpost (EP) might be helpful for organizing the proposal. An EP is not outright required, but please be mindful that if a post becomes too clunky and unorganized, it can be very hard for other people to follow.
- After the proposal, there will be a 72-hour discussion and voting period, where people may ask questions and vote on the candidate. The number of upvotes must outnumber the downvotes by at least five for the character to be considered "approved".
- Three days after the proposal has been made, if the character has been approved, you may post the writeup (the text to be posted on the trope page itself) on the thread and send it to the drafts page. Your candidate will soon be added to the CM subpage. If the work has a page, you should add your candidate to the relevant YMMV page. Voila! It's that simple!
Outside of this process, we do have a few ground rules:
- To keep the thread moving at a reasonable pace, there are some restrictions on when a proposal can be made. There should only be a maximum of four EPs posted both per page and per hour to ensure that nothing gets lost in the shuffle; additionally, each individual troper should only be proposing or writing up characters from a maximum of three works at a time (from initial proposals to end of their voting period). If your proposal would fall outside of either of these guidelines, we'd like to ask you to please wait until they would fit within; feel free to type them up on an outside document, and then when the time comes, you can just copy, paste, and post!
- No plagiarism of any kind. This is a very serious matter site-wide, as the website could get in actual legal trouble over this; as a result, this can very quickly lead to mod intervention. This can take many different forms:
- Direct plagiarism, i.e. wholesale copying. This is not only the easiest to find, but is also the most likely to warrant quick moderator intervention. To be clear, quoting in some places is perfectly acceptable, but it has to be very clear you're quoting from something else and it cannot be anything longer than a sentence or two - if you're quoting an entire work summary from Wikipedia, no one is going to believe you've actually consumed the work, so even if you cite your source, your candidate will be downvoted anyway.
- Self-plagiarism. Even if you can prove that you wrote the same text in both places, the site itself can't contain any of the duplicated text. If you already wrote something once before, it's not too hard to write it a second time.
- Using another site's work as a template for a proposal. Just because you don't copy and paste something directly doesn't mean it's any harder to detect if you're basing parts or all of your proposal on text someone else wrote. To be clear, this doesn't violate site rules and won't lead to mod intervention, but just like if you directly plagiarize, no one will believe you've consumed the work if you're clearly basing your proposal on something else. This thread largely operates on the honor system, and tweaking someone else's work to pass it off as your own is one of the fastest ways to lose trust.
- Votes must be for specific candidates, meaning no blanket voting (i.e. "yes to everyone I missed").
- If you are the first person to downvote a candidate, please provide an explanation of why when you do so. We're here for discussions above all, and a hit-and-run downvote doesn't facilitate anything.
- If a work is already reserved by another user, please don't comment on the work or any potential characters worth discussion before the discussion date. We know how exciting it is when a work has a keeper that you're waiting to talk about, but it's not fair to the person who reserved the work who is just as excited to lead the discussion to see the discussion getting spoiled before they get to do it. On the other hand, if the reservation only has one name attached, shoot them a PM - they may be down for a collaboration, which will get you in on the fun as well!
- Please keep the thread on-topic. While discussing the trope is fun and we encourage people to enjoy it, questions like "who's your favorite CM" are off-topic and can lead to thumps. That's the kind of question to take to people's PMs if they're willing. Similarly, while we encourage friendliness and familiarity with other users, posts should always have some kind of thread-relevant purpose; for instance, if you want to wish someone a happy birthday, feel free to, but if it's the only thing in the post, it's off-topic and needs something else alongside it. Again, though, while we strive for a friendly atmosphere, this is not Facebook; life updates are fun, but unless they have some kind of impact on your thread participation, please do not bring it here - we have Yack Fest for that.
- Please refrain from asking anything along the lines of "How Did We Miss This One?" In almost every case, the answer is simply "No one thought about it before". This Is a Wiki where everyone has different interests, and the fact that people missed a particular candidate, even one that seems like a textbook example of a trope or a character who is particularly iconic in pop culture, means absolutely nothing. The question is disruptive, has a simple and consistent answer, and provides nothing to any discussion.
- If you are suspended from parts of the website, it is still possible to participate!
- For users who are suspended from editing the wiki, you still have full access to this thread. You can propose candidates and write them up with no issues whatsoever; while you will have to ask someone else to post the entry to the relevant pages once it is done, all write-ups are considered thread-approved - as in, done by consensus - and thus doing so does not violate any rules regarding meatpuppeting.
- If you are suspended from the forums, your participation is limited but not impossible. It is still possible for a forum-suspended user to assist in creating the write-up for a character who has already been approved; as previously mentioned, write-ups are inherently considered a consensus-based edit and thus not tied to any one particular user. However, you can not assist in the proposal of a character; as a proposal is based around the forum rather than the wiki, doing so with a forum suspension qualifies as meatpuppeting.
- Please keep all discussions "in-house".
- What other wikis use for CM equivalents is irrelevant here.
- Please be wary of using other wikis, Fandom or otherwise, as sources of information. They are just as fallible as a site like Wikipedia in regards to accuracy because they can be edited by any user, just as this site can.
- Do not attempt to force a communication with an author in an attempt to gather evidence or settle a debate; besides the fact that this is a YMMV trope and thus author intent has variable weight depending on the circumstance, doing so may cross the line into drama exportation, which is prohibited site-wide.
If you would like to use an EP for your candidate, here's the general format. This format does not have to be followed exactly, but these are the main topics that need to be covered:
What is the work?
This is a brief summary of the work you're going to discuss. We don't need a full plot summary here, just however much we need to understand going into the discussion — it can even be as simple as quoting the summary on the work's page.
Who is the candidate and what have they done?
This is essentially the character's biography — who they are, their story, the crimes they commit, and, preferably (though not required), what happens to the candidate at the end. It does not have to include every single thing they ever do — for some villains, we'd be here all day if that was the case — but it should include the highlights of their journey.
Any redeeming qualities? Freudian Excuse?
This is where any potential redeeming characteristics or tragic backstory should be discussed. Do they have a tragic past? Do they show that Even Evil Has Standards or Even Evil Has Loved Ones? Maybe a Pet the Dog moment or two? This is where these should be discussed in full. Not every potential redeeming moment is a clear-cut disqualifier, but we should hear of any potential issues to ensure the character is discussed in full.
Are they bad enough?
A Complete Monster has to be particularly vile by the standard of the work they appear in. Therefore, you should look at what the character does compared to similar characters in the same work. This takes into account things like:
- Their resource level (a human Serial Killer can't stand up to an alien Omnicidal Maniac, but they can be bad by the standard of other human serial killers)
- The amount of time they have to work with (such as a one-shot character versus long-running antagonists)
- The quantity vs. quality of their crimes compared to others (someone with a lower victim count but far more visceral and personal crimes could be considered as equally bad overall as someone with a higher body count but less horror involved)
Essentially, this section is an analysis of the kinds of villainy shown in the work and an explanation of why this particular character's villainy stands out within it.
Final verdict?
This is where you post your final conclusion on the character in question. You can continue elaborating on your reasons or even just say a simple "yes" or "no"; at this point, we've heard everything we need to hear.
IMPORTANT NOTICE: This thread tackles very serious and dark matters on a daily basis. We will be discussing things like murder, rape, torture, human trafficking, crimes against children, and in particularly dark cases, several of these issues at the same time. We keep a lighthearted air, but all candidates carry the general assumption that these are awful individuals committing disgusting crimes. We ask that if you participate, you do so with the requisite seriousness such dark topics require; exclamations of how gross something is, whether serious or sarcastic, are disrespectful to the topics at hand, and if you cannot handle such topics, please do not participate.
And that's everything you need to know. Welcome to the thread!
Edited by Twiddler on Jan 17th 2024 at 5:42:49 AM
Woagh
Doesn't Eggman have a unambiguous mental breakdown after his creation dies?
NOISE IS CALLING, PICK UP PHONE
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Yes to Chak Ek and Emissary.
Didn't we discuss that Eggman? I could have sworn we did.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Lizzid people!
Yeah he was.
Fanfiction proponent
His breakdown doesn't happen until tens of issues after his 'children' kicked the bucket.
And I figured that this wasn't against the rules?
I also write fanfiction.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Or just have Winter of Atom with 4 for now and then move if we get more candidates?
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Hey, so you guys wait two weeks after a series ends before talking about it, right? The Sand Land anime just finished so I believe any discussion will happen on the 15th. Was anyone planning on proposing the villain from it at that time? I don't see it listed here: Complete Monster Discussion Dates. I'd like to cast my vote then if someone is.
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Chak-Ek and the Chaos Emissary.
P.S.: May the Fourth be with You, tropers!
Gentle Laborer
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
That's a good idea, he can go to the end of the tree.
My issue is that Eggman after he deletes ADAM says “it’s done, both my children gone” with a sad face
Now granted he does say “so much for family” when he kills Adam the second time
Also I will says breakdown is not over his children in issue 200
It’s over him constantly losing too Sonic
Also I know we don’t take usually WOG into account but Mecha’s death was said by Ian Flynn to be “sad” so I somehow doubt it wasn’t meant to be Mittgatting
Edited by YorkobeShounen on May 4th 2024 at 7:15:42 AM
King of the Koopas
In that case to Archie Eggman.
Woagh
Can this be the last time we bring him up?
This guy keeps being brought up all the time
I get is he is really heinous but I feel we should be careful with dismissing potential Mittgatting qualities
The issue is that Eggman doesn’t usually regret destroying his creations
We should not be quick to assume this is a Doflamingo or Odin situation
Edited by YorkobeShounen on May 4th 2024 at 7:41:00 AM
Memetic Loser Mother
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_down_emote.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
to Eggman
Frolaytia X Qwenthur of Heavy Object
Eggman
Eggman. I’d love for him to count, trust me. Various crimes like the Egg Grapes were absolutely horrifying, but a redeeming quality is a redeeming quality, and this one seems genuine.
Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button
How often does he keep being brought up? Enough that we might have to put him on the Resolved Items list?
Edited by MasterN on May 4th 2024 at 9:05:05 AM
One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.
The Draftsman of Doom
- "Double Abandando": Eddie Reyna is a slimy personal trainer and smalltime drug dealer who has had multiple sexual partners and is revealed to have infected at least three of them with HIV—possibly more—uncaring that he is letting them suffer a slow and painful deterioration and death, leaving one in particular Delicate and Sickly. Trying to prevent the third known victim—his own current girlfriend Dorie—from finding out the truth, Eddie has convinced Dorie that the woman who is trying to warn her about his virus is mentally unstable. When confronted by NYPD Detectives Adrianne Lesniack and James Martinez, Eddie tries to cast aspersions on the woman who brought the allegations against him.
- "Tea & Sympathy": Andrew Conover is a repeat predator and murderer from the United Kingdom. Targeting 3 women per attack period, Conover assaults women, binding their undergarments with duct tape around their ankles; inseminating them in the genitals, hair and face; and strangling them to the point of leaving ligature marks. Having used the name of London Detective Jimmy Cheatham—who had been pursuing Conover—as an alias, Conover obtains work as an embalmer in New York, abusing his job to molest corpses and target women. With Conover's latest crimes investigated by NYPD Detective Andy Sipowicz, Conover is revealed to have targeted eleven women overall, and attempts to target a twelfth.
Dunno. I think this is the second or third time he’s been brought up. I remember participating in an earlier discussion on the guy.
Nice EP though and I’m interested to see what other candidates he has in mind
Edited by SailorVenus372 on May 4th 2024 at 10:05:56 AM
I’m plotting my schemes wherever I go! They’re perfect in every way…
A coupla mammals makin' gravy
Yeah, I freaking wish Archie!Eggman could count, but redeeming qualities are redeeming qualities. Once again, "no" to him.
Now we're cookin'! While nobody's lookin'! We're family! Culinarily!
Goku Black
eggman.
Classy, Refined, Unstable
Eggman.
Also apologies for the delay about The Ministry of Ungentlemanly Warfare, I've only just managed to see it (P Ms are open) and Snoke has had some real life things crop up so once I've discussed it with them, there may be an EP incoming.
Oh, Mr. Kennedy, you entertain me. To show my appreciation, I will help you awaken from your world of clichés.
A coupla mammals makin' gravy
Take as much time as you need, Wet. We don't force proposals by gunpoint, lol
Now we're cookin'! While nobody's lookin'! We're family! Culinarily!
Not the Eye
For a while, I've been interested in recommending some Sonic candidates, and I decided to start today with the following villain that was turned down last year in the following discussion point.
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=16738556630A78599000&page=405#comment-10124
What is Archie Sonic?
Published by Archie Comics, an adaptation of Sonic the Hedgehog, featuring elements from the games and the first two animated series, depicted the Blue Blur and his friends fighting for the freedom of Planet Mobius against the evil Doctor Ivo Robotnik, and later, his successor.
Who is the Successor and what has he done?
In one particular universe of the Archie Sonic multiverse separate from the main Prime Zone, a variant of Dr. Julian Kintobor who renamed himself Dr. Ivo Robotnik, overthrew the Mobian House of Acorn to assume global power, and confronted Ixis Naugus like his Prime counterpart had done, differed in at least two respects to the latter's history: he successfully roboticized his older brother, Colin Kintobor, and performed the procedure on himself to give himself a fighting chance against his Sonic the Hedgehog. As 'Robo-Robotnik,' however, he lost the fight and his digitized consciousness was forced onto an incomplete space station that deprived him of making a comeback.
As years passed in his universe, Robo-Robotnik was losing hope until Robotnik Prime was suddenly teleported in front of King Sonic, Queen Sally, and their kids, prompting Robo-Robotnik to use what power his space station had to teleport his counterpart onto the station. Exchanging stories, Robotnik Prime gave an empowering speech to Robo-Robotnik that he would one day overcome his then challenges and defeat his Sonic just as he himself would need to return to Mobius Prime to face his own archenemy. Obliging his counterpart's request to return home, it was later revealed that Robo-Robotnik had his own motive for doing so.
Having scanned Robotnik Prime's mind, this Robo-Robotnik learned of the Giant Borg machine that a different Robo-Robotnik in the multiverse used to confront all Sonics only to be defeated and the parts to be scattered in the hands of a different Sonic per universe. Shortly obtaining the piece of Giant Borg in his home timeline and using it to build himself a new body, Robo-Robotnik then nuked his world's Mobotropolis, killing the Sonic hated once and for all, but leaving him with 'a void in his life.'
Upon learning of Robotnik Prime's erasure, however, Robo-Robotnik took a series of satellites that could combine into one space station and moved to the Prime Zone for the sake of fighting Sonic Prime.
These are his most foul deeds upon relocating:
Mitigating factors
The two reasons why the Eggman was outvoted before from what I gathered was his 'genuine care' for Mecha Robotnik and how he 'learned his lesson' in the Post-Super Genesis Wave timeline. Allow me to counter argue both:
Mecha: While Eggman's mind in Issue 164 did show Mecha in his thoughts after he destroyed her, it can be argued that he valued her more as an enforcer than her own person, let alone a daughter of sorts. Aside from what the Comic Encyclopedia described as 'vicious loyalty to her father,' Mecha never displayed much of a personality of her own, where most parents would have encouraged their children to develop hobbies, make friends, and et cetera.
Even more so, the reason why Eggman created such a family in the first place was because at that time, the normally submissive Snively had deserted him and he, according to the aforementioned encyclopedia, became lonely and followed logic that 'only made sense to himself.'
Lastly, the add-on story centered on Espio and Nicole in Issue 169, featured a conversation that delves into the man's psychology:
Espio: Why would Dr. Robotnik program his machines to show fear? It serves no purpose.
Nicole: I disagree. Dr. Robotnik thrives on the misery of others. Without Snively or any family, I hypothesize he feels the void in his life with robots.
Espio: I would argue, but this is the Eggman we're talking about.
If that last point does not qualify Eggman as a unique kind of psychopath, I do not know what does.
Post-Reboot: While it is true that the 'Worlds Collide event' happened in both continuities, it is easy to forget that the new Eggman seen in Issue 252 all the way to the comic's cancellation, had lived a completely different life from his previous version.
Before the Pre-Super Genesis Wave, Doctor Ivo 'Eggman' Robotnik was an, almost identical in history, counterpart to Mobius Prime's Ivo Robotnik, who was born under the name Julian Kintobor in a family of altered Humans called Overlanders, and this particular Eggman had his Prime counterpart's appearance at first before switching to his lasting, five-fingers on each gloved hand look.
After the Super Genesis Wave, though, he was born a 100% Human native to the same dimension as Sonic with the name Ivo Robotnik, he grew up to become a G.U.N. scientist scheming to take over the world with his completely unrelated colleague, not nephew, Dr. Julian Snively, aiding him for a time, and upon experiencing his own 'Worlds Collide event,' had his mind filled with memories of the completely different life that was lived before hand until it eventually balanced out.
In that regard, the aforementioned Eggmen are not literally the same person.
Heinous Standard
Whether in his home timeline or on Mobius Prime, Eggman has backed the genocidal crimes of Kage von Stryker, responded nuclearly to his enemies, sees his acts of war and the treacherous schemes of his underlings as games for him to play, and even remarks to Mecha that while he could seek alternative energy instead of relying on the Egg Grape Chambers, he views it as being not as fun as the other method.
All in all, Sonic among others were right at seeing him as an even worse menace than Robotnik Prime, which Eggman is more than happy to show.
Verdict?
As much as I can see Eggman's mental breakdown being caused in part by the betrayal and demise of his own robotic children, and I am reluctant to see some other Archie Sonic foes such as Robotnik Prime being outdone by him, I do believe he is applicable for CM status himself. What do you all think?
I also write fanfiction.