General Isekai Thread

The only thing Goblin Slayer can say for itself is at least its not Redo of Healer.

Which, in itself, is pretty amusing that that author can write good stories too (World's Finest Assassin being a highlight).

Goblin Slayer and Redo of Healer both show regular fantasy works are just as capable of being trash like some isekai.

As bizarre as it may seem, stuff like Redo of Healer bothers me significantly less than Jobless Reincarnation, Shield Hero, and Goblin Slayer since the author isn't pretending that it's meant as anything other than fetishist schlocky trash and not some deep dive into some philosophical or cultural BS nonsense.

Yeah but unlike Mushoku Tensei and Goblin Slayer, Shield Hero is actually good. There aren't many series I'll die on the hill to defend but Shield Hero (at least the light novels) is one of them. Though, I say at least the light novels, but I do acknowledge the anime does do a better job of making Naofumi more likeable.

I realize that Mushoku Tensei is a bit of a sacred cow in some parts of the animanga fandom but I kind of just don't vibe with it. Its not even a case of Seinfeld is Unfunny, but something about its semi-prequel nature just bugs me.

Edited by Silentedge89 on Apr 21st 2024 at 2:39:44 PM

Does the anime makes the protagonist more likable by the fact that his inner thoughts are shown far less and his nastiest actions are omitted (since from what i saw Naofumi in the anime is as much of a pro-slavery guy as in light novels)?

Edited by VeryVileVillian on Apr 21st 2024 at 1:29:13 PM

He wasn't "pro-slavery" from the start, but getting screwed over royally by the royalty in the world he got summoned, combined with the bad rep of the Shield-Hero by itself had in the country (also thanks to the royalty screwing over the Shield even further), he had basically the choice between "get killed" or "purchase slaves to help him" in order to even stand a chance and survive in such a hostile environment.

And even then, he treated/protected those slaves way better than anyone else would have done in the whole country.

Context is vital in this case.

And for "inner thoughts or not", one just have to look at Momonga aka "Ainz" to get one answer there. Would the impression of him have changed if we were not allowed to see his inner thoughts on the matter as the story of "Overlord" carried on?

Edited by Trainbarrel on Apr 21st 2024 at 12:41:17 PM

The biggest one is the trial and (almost) execution scene of Trash and Bitch. In the anime he's much more reasonable about it and saves them from death himself whereas in the Light Novel/Manga he's practically screaming for their death and has to be talked down by the queen.

So then yes, he's still pro slavery. Which is one of the reasons I'll probably never read Shield Hero.

Every time I see a work where the author tries to justify a character being pro-slavery, I become more relieved that Roll Over and Die (yeah, I know it isn't an isekai work, but it has one major character who was formerly a slave and it forms a major part of her character arc) didn't go down that route, and that it was much better for it.

A work not going the pro-slavery route shouldn't feel like a high bar to clear, but I suppose having pretty female characters being subservient to a protagonist you're supposed to identify with is something a good number of readers enjoy.

Edited by dragonfire5000 on Apr 21st 2024 at 9:58:15 AM

I feel like quite a few popular authors could stand to broaden their horizons and think of ways to have a female lead believably hang around the main character without physically or magically chaining her to him.

The thing is that Japan has a shut-in problem to the point where their term for it is the name of the relevant trope. Its likely that many creatives in japan would have that as their background and would therefore be predisposed to not touching grass.

I assume its a symptom of a more general and deep rooted issue there.

It comes down to Values Dissonance really. Slavery is universally bad, but Isekai Protags being Pro-Slavery comes with this big ass caveat that their definition of slavery is "You have to be my friend/travel companion no matter what." I've yet to encounter a story where a guy buys slaves and then puts them to work on a planatation, that probably wouldn't go over very well.

Edited by Codafett on Apr 21st 2024 at 11:21:46 AM

Sure, but buying a human(elf, beastkin, whatever) being solely for companionship is still pretty reprehensible. No matter how amicable it is, it can never be equal, because one party in the friendship literally owns the other one.

Look, I'm not going to say that this means isekai authors or fans condone slavery in real life (though it gets a bit suspect when they write in their own isekai-fan protagonists who get isekai'd and are visibly excited that now they get to buy slaves). Fiction is fiction. Still, it IS concerning knowing that this is one of the most popular genres out of basically all media types and especially among young men, in a country that already has a worsening sexism problem.

In Record of Wortenia War, the protagonist also engages in slavery. He takes it way further than usual by buying child slaves so he can turn them into soldiers!

The narrative at least makes it clear that the protagonist's morals are not typical of someone born and raised in modern times, considering he also has no hesitation when it comes to killing his captors when he's first summoned to the new world. And it's later justified since his grandfather was also once summoned to that world, and he's been preparing the protagonist for this since for whatever reason their family is at higher risk of being summoned.

The narrative still does the usual "benevolent" slave owner copout to keep the protagonist from seeming too despicable of course.

9/10 times the slaves just develop a crush on the MC within the first 2 chapters and after that the narrative tends to never mention them being slaves again, at best if there is a tsundere character they will get some slapstick punishment by whatever slave magic they are under.

This may sound like making excuses but at least Shield Hero somewhat justifies by making it a means of keeping Naofumi's companions safe since the majority of them are Demi-humans who have no rights in Melromarc.

I can't say anything for the anime, so this part might have been changed there since I've yet to watch seasons 2 and 3, but the other half is Naofumi has such extreme PTSD from everything he's been through that he literally cannot trust anyone that isn't a slave. Which there, at least, no bones are made about how wrong it is that he thinks that way.

It's not a "reincarnate in another world" type of isekai work, but one reason I really enjoy Welcome to Demon School! Iruma-kun is because while the main character does have a couple female characters hanging around him, the work makes it clear that they're not just hanging around him to be eye candy. And it helps that none of them are slaves, because it isn't that sort of story.

It's also believable that female characters would hang around the main character, as he's shown to be a kind-hearted and empathetic individual who is a positive influence on their lives, and they also help develop his character as well, such as encouraging him to think about what he actually wants in life (which is something he never got the chance to do due to an abusive childhood) and to be more open about what troubles him, especially since he starts off as the sort of person who bottles up his negative feelings.

There is a character who is somewhat magically chained to the protagonist, but it's a male teacher instead of a female character, and said magically chaining is usually played for laughs since said teacher gets turned into a cute but grumpy-looking fluffy bird demon whenever he gets summoned by the protagonist, and the funny part comes from the teacher usually being something of a grump (I've seen him described as a less abusive Professor Snape at times). And even he serves as a positive influence on the protagonist since he actually takes his teaching duty seriously.

Edited by dragonfire5000 on Apr 22nd 2024 at 1:02:01 AM

How a Realist Hero Rebuilt the Kingdom does something a bit more interesting with Slavery. From what I remember of the anime, the Isekaied hero wants to end slavery but the Kingdom has just got out of one Civil War and didn't want to cause another one, US Civil War style, so introduces reforms designed to make slavery illegal in the long-run, but improves conditions and education of slaves in the short-term which results in some of them having better education than some of the Kingdom's nobles. He does enslave two people but that was more because they were guilty of Treason but didn't want to execute them (especially his fiancé's best friend) and even got one of them to promise to kill him if he ever becomes a tyrant.

Edited by SebastianGray on Apr 22nd 2024 at 6:11:08 PM

I know every story by design is authors manufacturing situations to justify their characters doing certain things but this, more so than anything else, just feels like the author manufacturing situations so that he can still let the slavery happen while pretending as if the MC is a decent person. Shield hero had an excuse, briefly in the first volume, when it was a way to show Naofumi was becoming a bad person due to trauma and difficult circumstances. It doesn't get to keep twisting itself in pretzels on why actually the slavery NEEDS to stay.

Edited by Mami on Apr 22nd 2024 at 9:13:38 AM

I don't want to talk too much about Shield Hero because I never even got past the first chapter (the thing about the hero being seen as useless because his awesome magical weapon is only defensive made me go "has this author never played an MMO?"), but everything I've heard about it since has definitely made me think there's too much slavery apologia and sexism apologia.

Remind me, what's the history of slavery in Japan? I know in the US education on slavery hits a lot closer to home (or at least it's supposed to, we've got too many apologists over here too), but if it's not a huge part of their history it might be easier to handwave away.

Generally, when it comes to stuff of whether writers know anything about MM Os, one generally can answer with a confident "no". Or else everyone involved tends to be really lousy players.

Exportation and domestic slave trading was banned by Hideyoshi in the late 16th century after the Jesuits basically overplayed their hand and went bonkers selling female Japanese slaves to Europe. However, this didn't really stop other forms of slavery, namely debt bondage and the coolie system, both of which were more prominently visible in, you guessed, the sex trade, particularly with young Japanese girls and women for debt bondage, and indentured servitude/hard labor with men for the coolie system. The Meiji government attempted to stop this, though of course just because something's illegal doesn't mean it stops.

The Penal Code the Meiji government enacted also didn't stop Imperial Japan's "comfort women." This was most visible in the Shanghai Incident and the Rape of Nanking, and was very much prevalent all throughout World War II.

If there's a game system involved, it's almost guaranteed to be a crap system, in both manhwa and manga. Most of the time the systems make absolutely zero sense from a mechanical perspective. That, or as you say, almost everyone involved is an idiot, especially when it comes to the ones with "secret" classes because apparently no one who played the game in-universe ever tried to punch a goblin as a blacksmith or whatever.

Edited by ITNW1989 on Apr 22nd 2024 at 2:12:06 AM

Otome games have the most basic systems and tropes ever and even then almost no otome isekai writer can get it right because God forbid you engage in the thing you’re writing about

Edited by Mami on Apr 22nd 2024 at 10:23:39 AM

so that's the reason why Video Game Movies Suck!

It does make sense. Video game mechanics are not the kind of thing that should be digletic in stories, so it takes a deft hand to succeed in tying them into the narrative without inducing Fridge Logic or power level debates.

I'd have to assume it plagues LitRPG as well as Gamelit, even if the tabletop games are more likely to have the mechanics be in service to the narrative then their digital counterparts.

It depends on the LitRPG, but the good ones I've read are far superior to any of the popular manga/manhwa. Life Reset, Cinnamon Bun, and There is no Epic Loot here, Only Puns all blow the above out of the water.