Politics in Media - The Good, the Bad, and the Preachy

I greatly disagree with Gowasu's argument based on how it's presented here. The way it's presented seems very similar to classic philosophical thought experiment called the Problem of Evil, as a way to rectify the dissonance between an omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent deity and the existence of great suffering.

First of all, it presupposes that evil is required for an equal or competitive good and improvement to occur. I don't agree with the argument that Super Saiyan Goku is an equitable good to all the harm Frieza did. Frieza basically genocided dozens and dozens of planets, and in the end, all that was counteracted was that he was stopped. The planets weren't brought back better, the survivors didn't get reparations, the intergalactic real estate organization still actually continued without him. Goku just made his part of the galaxy safer from Frieza. You also don't need a Frieza to improve, all you need is to value improvement and a challenge. Some of Goku's biggest gains in improvement didn't occur because there was some big evil, just someone stronger than him. Examples include training with Master Roshi, fighting Jackie Chun, (kinda) fighting Tenshinhan, training on Yardrat, achieving SSJ 3, achieving SS Blue. It didn't need an evil opponent to push Goku forward, it just needed a reason and desire to improve. The first person to climb Mount Everest didn't do it because the world would be saved if he did, it was because he wanted to prove himself that he could.

Second of all, it values supposed good of the whole at the cost of localized suffering. Even if we suppose that SSJ Goku was worth Frieza's rampaging, that's a cold comfort to all the planets Frieza bulldozed over while he was rampaging. The universe gets a new strongman who will sometimes come to meet whatever evil may arrive and fight them, but only if it inconveniences him. Everyone else gets screwed. Such an amazing force for good. Frieza actually got to be brought back alive and is going along his genociding ways, but because it wasn't inconveniencing Goku at the time, he gets to do it, unabated. It runs into the same issues a lot of us have with the Prime Directive. Whatever noble intent the Prime Directive has, does that justify complete annihilation of a sapient race?

It also supposes that evil begets good to oppose it. And that's not necessarily true. We find in many cases, as evil becomes commonplace, it becomes easier and leads more evil. You don't teach a child to be good by placing them among criminals and seeing the horrors they wrought. You place them among good people and see what joy they beget.

It also assumes that evil is opposed by good. Evil can just as easily be opposed by a different evil. The Nazis weren't just opposed by the Americans and the British. They were also opposed by Stalin's Russia, and we wouldn't consider Stalin any form of good. Similarly, Zamasu didn't become a greater good to oppose the injustice he hated so much, he became a greater evil.

Edited by HeyMikey on May 7th 2024 at 5:55:50 AM

I know it wasn't your intention, but isn't the "(Insert something here" Master Race" meme disrespectful to the victims of Nazism, given the Nazis believed the Aryans were a "master race?"

Or am I unintentionally invoking Godwin's Law?🤔

It's a Yahtzee joke.

The point of that phrase is to make fun of the tendencies of a vocal minority of PC players to act gate-keepy and snobby towards console players by comparing them to the Nazis and their beliefs they were the 'master race'.

As for whether that's offensive, ultimately that is very subjective. I personally don't find it offensive, but I'm not someone who was personally or knows someone personally effected by the Nazis (not that you have to be to find it offensive).

Edited by king15 on May 7th 2024 at 6:36:06 PM

Yahtzee has said in the past that he hates that joke now because people took it literally.

Yes, but Fighteer isn't taking it literally.

Edited by Resileafs on May 7th 2024 at 3:11:25 PM

Anyway...

True, true. There's a Doctor Who episode that uses that argument. For context, the Doctor and friends have traveled back in time to the creation of the Daleks (ultra-xenophobic aliens in metal casings that want to wipe out all non-Dalek life in the galaxy, for the unfamiliar), and by touching two wires together the Doctor can stop them from ever existing.

He stalls partly because, according to him, many people who would otherwise been enemies united against the Daleks, even though the net good gained from no one ever having to worry about Daleks in the first place would theoretically be even greater. (There's also some good old false equivalence at work, as he says that he'd be no better than them, even though the Daleks are programmed to kill anything that isn't them and said programmer is the very megalomaniacal Davros.)

Of course, part of the real reason is continuity shenanigans - there had been quite a few Dalek serials already - and not wanting to lose iconic recurring villains. There have been later episodes that also use the "people unite against the Daleks" argument, but I don't know the specifics of those.

I'm also not convinced we're supposed to think Gowasu is all that wise. He completely failed to rein in his apprentice after all. Even Beerus called him out on this, telling him he should do a better job vetting disciples.

That would loop back to Gowasu’s argument.

We also have to take account the tournament of Power since Goku’s power ups and Frieza being around is a major reason why Universe 7 won.

Hell, Dr. Gero building Android 17 is a net good since he’s the one who ultimately beat Jiren.

So Gowasu’s logic does have merit, he’s entirely right that evil informs good when it comes to how Zamasu refuses to accept any evil and goes off the deep end.

@Red. Isn't Gowasu's argument presented as more right and that the problem is more that Zamasu is a bad student who couldn't accept flaws?

Yeah, Gowasu's arguments are more supported by the narrative, and it's Zamasu's own flaws that lead him astray since Gowasu's arguments are explaining why the Kai have a policy of non-interference.

Gowasu's arguments rely on a balance type narrative, that mortals given free will are just as capable of great evil as they are good, and the duality is part of life and must be accepted, Zamasu refusing to accept that the Gods have any flaws or that the mortals have any value are why he falls not Gowasu's teachings.

This is the same series that argues that Beerus' destruction of planets is a necessary part of the cycle of life, it's his job to destroy planets and billions of lives so that new planets with new life can be created.

How competent Beerus is at his job is subject to debate, but this is what Dragon Ball argues in favor of, that's why Beerus isn't seen as evil but more amoral and has his own net positives that he contributes to.

Granted, Gowasu could have done a better job SHOWING Zamasu that mortals are capable of good.

Edited by RedHunter543 on May 8th 2024 at 5:51:51 PM

@Hey Mikey

The funny thing is that the opposite happened a lot in the original DBZ. It's one of the reasons Goku initially thought he should stay dead after the Cell Saga. He only came back to life to deal with Buu, a villain completely unrelated to Goku at all.

Edit:

In a warped way, even Zamasu is an example of this, in the anime at least. His turn to villainy started...because he lost a sparring match with Goku. That's not remotely Goku's fault, but it's still a case of a villain being entirely motivated by the existence of a good guy.

In the manga it's even worse, since Zamasu's motivation is watching Goku fight on the gods' version of Youtube and getting pissed at seeing a mortal fight at that level.

But yeah, you can kind of see why Goku thought Earth would be better off without him after the Cell Saga, until he finally had to fight a Big Bad that wasn't targeting Earth because of him specifically.

Edited by M84 on May 8th 2024 at 6:15:40 PM

@Red So you think because Zamasu refused to accept evil is why he turned evil? How does that work exactly?

Yes, that's the theme here, that Zamasu fully believes that evil can ONLY sully good and that there's nothing good that can come from it.

Gowasu argues that evil is an expression of free will as a result of giving the mortal minds, which is a major reason Zamasu hates the mortals because he can ONLY see them as pure evil beings that can only sully the beautiful world the Gods have created, and he sees Gods who practice inaction as evil for letting the mortals and by extension evil exist.

And the irony is that by ignoring Gowasu's argument that evil exists to inform good Zamasu ends up the very evil that he preaches against because he refuses to learn to see things beyond simple black and white, and spoiling the duality that exists in all things as Gowasu warned.

Man would have an aneurysm if he learned Android 17 ended up saving Universe 10 and all the other universes from erasure.

Edited by RedHunter543 on May 8th 2024 at 6:12:32 PM

How about Frieza helping him win against Jiren?

It's funny you brought up Jiren, because now that I think about it, Dragon Ball is pretty slanted against some people who are actively seeking justice and wanting to change the status quo.

Besides Zamasu, you got Frost who was presented as a good guy version of Frieza who actively helps space orphans and fights against war mongers getting revealed as evil and cheating at the tournament.

Heck, is Gohan still fighting crime actively as the Great Saiyaman?

And there's Sealas who is a former time patroller who turned evil because he disagreed with the Time Patrol's policy of protecting ALL of history including the bad parts like Kid Buu's genocidal planet destroying rampages.

While the Time Patrollers who have to ensure history goes on it's right course of action including stuff like the Saiyans committing genocide against the Tuffles are portrayed as more heroic.

Edited by RedHunter543 on May 8th 2024 at 6:31:57 PM

What’s that about Sealas?

Okay, now this is some heavy lore from the card game:

“Sealas was originally a member of the Galactic Patrol whom Chronoa recruited as the first Time Patroller and her disciple. However, Sealas had a strong sense of justice due to his background as a Galactic Patrolman and had trouble accepting the darker aspects of history such as the senseless destruction caused by the original Majin Kid Buu who had existed since Time Immemorial. His views clashed with Chronoa's who tried to teach him to accept it as part of his duty as a Time Patroller, though Sealas stayed true to his beliefs despite Chronoa's best efforts.

After witnessing the death of a boy, he tried to save from Kid Buu and the destruction of the boy's planet through the Scroll of Eternity, Sealas completely lost faith in the Time Patrol's mission to protect history if it meant he had to let innocent lives and evil slip away. Believing the only way to create a world of peace was to erase the current "unjust" history to create a new one that was "just" and free of evil, Sealas decides to betray Chronoa and the Time Patrol, attempting to burn the Scroll of Eternity, only for Chronoa to discover his betrayal and stop him.“

The Kais firmly believe in the balance between good and evil. Particularly Chronoa who is compassionate and heroic but is adamant on her stance that the evil parts of history must be preserved along with the good.

Beerus even notes that anyone who preaches about Justice is not likely going to be a good guy.

Edited by RedHunter543 on May 8th 2024 at 7:10:26 PM

Can we really consider the To P a net good, when it was Goku's fault that was even an issue in the first place? It was Goku who put the idea of a tournament in Zeno's mind in the first place with the Universe 6/7 tournament and then decided to remind them about having the Tournament after the Zamasu event, against Beerus' wishes. If a large oil spill occurred and a community got together to clean it up and were successful, but everything that cause the oil spill is still in place to happen again, is that really an example of good rising to meet evil or just normal people rising to protect their own stuff? It's not like the circumstances that lead to this entire mess were changed so that it could never happen again.

Also people in Universe 7 growing stronger for the To P as a good rising to meet evil is not necessarily true either. The fact that Android 17 was instrumental is coincidental, Dr. Gero didn't create 17 for the purposes of doing good, and he didn't get stronger on the island fighting poachers because he knew the To P was happening. Frieza helping to defeat Jiren also isn't good rising to defeat evil, is evil rising to protect its own, like in my previous argument where evil is not necessarily opposed by good, but by a different evil (and vice-versa, good can be opposed by another good).

Gowasu's philosophy comes off as very Thermian Argument-like. The world has to act this way because the plot moves in a manner that makes Gowasu's point and we state any good that happens in the series as supporting his point, outside of any additional context. Frieza needs to exist so that SSJ Goku (or someone similar) will come about to oppose him and that is an equal good according to the Gowasu and the show's themes. All the decades of horror? Irrelevant, because he was finally stopped. Buu came about so Goku and Vegeta and friends stopped him when the Kais couldn't? Surely that is good rising to the occasion. Forget all the parts where Buu only came about because the Saiyans wanted to dick around rather than end this promptly. And the fact that Beerus could have woken up and put an end to the madness is beside the point (and he would have done it to, if nothing else than to protect himself, because he goes if the Kai does). If you applied it to real world events, you could use this same philosophy to say the Holocaust happening is necessary, because it gave rise to the Allied powers to oppose the Axis.

On the TOP, wasn't Zeno always planning on making the tournament a thing to test the universes and see what wish would be made? Or was it something like he was always going to find a way to test the universes and Goku's suggestion gave him that idea?

As for this point: "The fact that Android 17 was instrumental is coincidental, Dr. Gero didn't create 17 for the purposes of doing good"

It wasn't at all intentional but Gero's evil did accidentally lead to good in a way, it's interesting to think about if nothing else, since if he didn't create the Androids a lot of death could have been avoided, but then Universe 7 would have lost without Android 17 and 18, and then gotten erased.

That's why the Time Patrol under Chronoa work to maintain all parts of history including Trunks time travelling. From the Kai perspective, even if they have the power to eradicate Frieza to stop his evil, or rewrite history to avert tragedy, they have to take the evil as well as the good as part of their policy.

We all know the real reason is because the show has to happen, but I find it fun to discuss.

Goku is very heroic neutral, but his actions have resulted in a net good for the universe but he has also done shit like revive Frieza albeit this choice was also sanctioned by Beerus IIRC as thanks for his help in the TOP.

Edited by RedHunter543 on May 9th 2024 at 3:01:07 AM

Okay, so random change of topic, but I found this reddit take on why it's illogical that there are corrupt cops in Gotham because of how dangerous the job actually is, plus factors like Batman.

Here are some interesting points I've seen made:

"Go ahead and take a minute here to mentally insert every time a villain took over the city, every time there were massive citywide riots for a random reason, every time some alien shit happened, and every time GCPD got massacred during an Arkham/Blackgate breakout. Due to the sliding timescale, Gotham has a 9/11 level event roughly every month, and a ton of cops die during them, more so than the average civilian.

And that's just looking at the big dramatic casualties. When those aren't happening, their best case scenario is to patrol the single most crime ridden city in existence, with thousands of criminals, massive gangs, a dozen new serial killers every week, and several hundred psychopath supervillains who they literally cannot stop. Batman comics constantly show unnamed GCPD officers dying off like flies. And they don't just get shot, they get frozen then shattered, or tortured, or turned into a living mannequin."

And for the Batman point:

"Most corrupt cops also tend to get by because they're confident that they won't be caught, and that the department won't look into them. Except Gotham is home to a fucking demigod of the night, who is also funnily enough the world's greatest detective. Most of the time that we see corrupt GCPD officers is specifically in the context of Batman finding them. In Assault on Arkham, Batman casually mentions that he memorized each of the Arkham guards and their schedules, and there's a running gag across comics, games, and shows that he knows GCPD officers even before they introduce themself. If you're a cop, and you're taking cash on the side, Batman knows you intimately, and is coming for your ass.

So not only are you insanely likely to get caught, you're going to get caught by Batman. With regular corrupt cops, they only have bureaucrats going after you, and you can use your bribes to pay for a great lawyer. If Batman catches you, you're likely going to have every bone in your body shattered.

As a bonus, Batman is super close with Jim Gordon, who is also notoriously honest and cracks down hard on corrupt cops. So you'll get sent to the insanely evil and brutal jail of the week, with a bunch of people who hate you, and will instantly kill you."

Food for thought thread. Corrupt cops are a staple of shit hole city settings but in a city like Gotham, being a cop is far more dangerous than it is IRL, so realistically, a majority of cops who would join in a time when Batman and his rogues are well established would be the people who genuinely believe in the cause and want to serve and protect.

What do you know, Gotham has tangibly improved in the wake of Batman's Advent.

Granted it is balanced out by the supervillain question but at the very least there is more reason to think Batman's presence isn't a sisyphian effort doomed to futility.

Honestly, I wonder why anyone would want to be a cop at all in Gotham given the casualty rate. If you're a good cop, you get horribly murdered by supervillains. If you're a bad cop, you get beaten to a pulp by Batman.

Either there's a reserve of decent people who are desperately trying to make a difference or cops are off-brand criminals who want a cover for their activities. Or both, I suppose. Weird that they manage to coexist though.

Edited by Fighteer on May 8th 2024 at 3:44:12 PM

Well yeah, Batman IS an inarguable net positive for Gotham. Sure stories won't let him fix Gotham forever, but he HAS saved the city from multiple city destroying threats like Joker threatening the water supply in a remake of their first story, Bane taking it over, Scarecrow driving the Magistrate's top cop into a murderous rampage amidst attacks and taking it over, ETC ETC.

Without Batman, Gotham would be destroyed several times over. Lots of alternate universe stories explore that idea, sometimes to nonsensical levels like Penguin somehow being the president of the USA, or Ra's Al Ghul ruling over all of Asia.

Yeah, there HAS to be a lot of good people on the force at this point since being in the GCPD is an incredibly dangerous job that would scare off people who are only in it for the money.

In Gotham, you are incredibly likely to be killed, and will probably die or be caught long before you can ever even enjoy the bribe you received.

Edited by RedHunter543 on May 9th 2024 at 3:47:47 AM

and the latter are liable of being found out by Vengeance, the Night here. Bring it back to red's point of a desire and dedication to justice being the reason why people don the blue suits.

Granted this prolly won't quell Police Brutality issues beyond Bruce rendering into Caesar what is his or finding evidence in advance and nipping that in the bud.